Conditional Immortality Links

[Michelle]

Not exactly on-topic.

Glenn,

Greetings, and Welcome to this forum!
I've been recommending your podcasts at various sites.
I don't really "debate" these issues any longer, but continue in my studies.
Your lectures have been quite helpful.

Thanks, and welcome again!

Yeah, hi, Glenn!

[RickC]

'Been a while....more links -

Objections to Conditional Immoratlity- with David Burge

Hosted by Truth Matters podcast.
Note: Truth Matters' homepage and/or church are not trinitarian, but I think all guests interviewed are.

Links (on the same page) -
- The Truth About Heaven with Steve Taylor
- The Truth about Hell with John Cortright
- The History of Hell with John Roller
- Resurrection with Joe Martin

Comments -
Each talk is interesting.
I've listened to each once.
Several things were brought up I've never really considered.
Won't comment on anything specifically now - just wanted to give the link!
Thanks!

[RickC]

A note about David Burge.

I had just emailed him a few minutes ago, saying "Thanks" (for the interview) and that I would be in prayer for him and his family.

His wife Tarnya immediately replied saying that David died on July 4th ("yesterday" for USA, they live in New Zealand). He had luekemia. In fact, I had just seen the update on him when her email arrived. I had thanked him for his Bible teaching...saying that I enjoyed it a lot...which he never read.

Thank you Rick
Dave fell asleep in the Lord last night.
But what an encouragement to me to know this morning that even now his labours in the Lord continue to be a blessing others: I am pleased you appreciated the interview.
You can find Dave's personal blog here
http://davidburge.wordpress.com/
Kind regards
Tarnya Burge

I felt I should add this and replied to Mrs. Burge that I will be in prayer for them.
May the Lord be with the David Burge Family, and with us all, Amen.

[RickC]

I came across a debate between James White (pro-Eternal-Conscious-Torment) and Roger and Faith Forster (pro-Conditional-Immortality). Roger Forster offered a new twist on this, in that he sees all as being conscious in an intermediate state, with the wicked being annihilated at final judgment.

Link to Unbelievable! radio program --
http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable?mod_page=6
(in UK, see 8 August 2009 -- also, a week earlier they debated Calvinism, worth a listen too)!

Thanks

[RickC]

I just found a site named Closer to Truth.
It's not exclusively Christian and deals with questions about God, Consciousness, Science, etc.

Closer to Truth: Greg Boyd page

Greg talks about immortality, afterlife, judgment, and other topics related to Open Theism (or Open Future View). Each interview is approximately 12 minutes long.

Thanks,

[RickC]

Add-on--> Greg Boyd's Jan 2009 sermon: Tormented by the Flames?
(45 mins, part one of two).

Apparently, Greg was doing a 'through the Bible' type teaching series. In part one of 'Lazarus and the Rich Man', Greg gives his view about Hell, as well as asking many of the questions we all ask (if we've thought about Hell, that is). He calls it "my view", without naming it Conditional Immortality. You'll see: This is clearly his view.

While I don't agree with some of his interpretations in minor ways, (such as 'gehenna being a dump outside of Jerusalem', which isn't historically verifiable, and 'our' works being burned as 'wood, hay, stubble'<--which refers to the Apostles' evangelical work); Boyd covers the basics of the CI view very well otherwise. (This vid would serve as an excellent Intro to CI - especially as contrasted with ECT, 'eternal conscious torment').

In the sermon, Greg talks about God being a 'Consuming Fire' and how, in His Love, He has begun the process in us (believers) of burning away those things that aren't like Him. But also, how by that very same Love, He will destroy those who will have refused Him/His Love during their lifetimes. (Just watch Greg - he packs in a *LOT* of thought)!!!

Thanks

[mattrose]

In the sermon, Greg talks about God being a 'Consuming Fire' and how, in His Love, He has begun the process in us (believers) of burning away those things that aren't like Him. But also, how by that very same Love, He will destroy those who will have refused Him/His Love during their lifetimes. (Just watch Greg - he packs in a *LOT* of thought)!!!

Thanks

I support the CI view, but I don't agree with this wording.

If people are only immortal based on the condition of being connected to Jesus, then why describe their end as a God-caused destruction? This is the same reason I don't like the label 'annihilationism' which, to me, sounds like people are naturally immortal, but that God chooses to destroy them to change that.

[RickC]

Hi Matt

I support the CI view, but I don't agree with this wording.

(Which was in reference to where I wrote):
But also, how by that very same Love, He will destroy those who will have refused Him/His Love during their lifetimes.

I was quickly summarizing Greg's talk, not trying to give details (which was why I suggested people watch Greg). With "...by that very same Love..." I meant, "in comparison to God burning people forever in Hell" (as Greg says in the sermon).

'Sorry I didn't make this clear.

If people are only immortal based on the condition of being connected to Jesus, then why describe their end as a God-caused destruction?

This brings up other things, like justice and mercy.
And some stuff I've been 'seeing' lately.
(Such as, I'll just ask):
Outside of the resurrection of Jesus:
Is the resurrection in 1 Cor 15 referencing the resurrection of believers only?
(I think it possibly, if not probably, does).

This is the same reason I don't like the label 'annihilationism' which, to me, sounds like people are naturally immortal, but that God chooses to destroy them to change that.

I've always understood "the resurrection of the unjust" as their being brought back-to-life, only to be annihilated. I'm fairly sure this might be the 'traditional' belief of folks who hold to CI. The thing is, the resurrection of the unjust is contrasted over against the resurrection of the just to life: (those who put on immortality).
So this gets a little complicated....

There are references in Josephus that seem to indicate that Pharisees may not have believed the unjust will be resurrected - that is, that the wicked will not obtain to "the resurrection (of the just) to life." Did they mean the unjust will not be raised in any sense at all? If the wicked, in this possible view of the Pharisees, aren't "resurrected to life", then how does the judgment of the unjust happen? (Thus far, I accept the 'default' CI position, but still have questions).

I've been looking into this in the scriptures too, but haven't gotten around to putting anything together (to post) on it yet.
(Just to think about) -
Rev 20 (NKJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Are these 'standing dead' dead?
Are all judged before anyone participates in the resurrection to life?
Are the wicked dead, though 'standing' in Rev 20:12, never [literally] resurrected at all?
=========================

But when in doubt on what I said about Greg Boyd: Check out Greg Boyd!

Any thoughts on my other (above)?
I know yer a busy man!
Take care,

P.S. Matt, I see you 'on' this page and I just did some editing, LOL
And: almost started a new thread!
But: I'll try to get one started soon!

[RickC]

I've got the new thread up under Eschatology (though it relates to Conditionalism) -
Reconsidering the: "resurrection of the just and unjust"

Posted in 3 places.
'Hope someone replies!