Conditional Immortality

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

That's more along the lines of what I was looking for. Thanks for posting it!

[_Rick_C]

Greetings,

'Quoting verses' doesn't necessarily make a point or prove a belief to be true. "Proof-texting' --- quoting a verse or verses out of context, "pulling them out of the Bible", and then "stringing them together" is an attempt to try to make them mean something they don't.

One very important note is: Those who hold to 'conditional immortality' and those who believe in 'eternal torment' have differing views on the meanings of the following texts (and I'm supposing everyone reading already knows this). While the following could be used to support the conditional immortality view; they aren't "proof-texts" and need to be compared with the rest of the Bible, imo, which is what I do, anyway.

I found these verses on a site that has them in the King James Version, which I don't prefer. To save the time of looking each one up in another version, I'll post the KJV and will note exceptions.

You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.
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Psalms 37
9. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
10. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
11. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

20. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.

38. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off.
---------------

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.

Obadiah 1
15. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
16. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been.

Ezekiel 19
4. Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
20. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

Malachi 4
1. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts.

New Testament

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

John 10:28 (NASB) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Luke 13:3 (NASB) "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Romans 2:12 (NASB) For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Acts 13:41 (NASB)"‘Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.’"

Hebrews 1:11 (NIV) They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.

Hebrews 10:39 (NASB) But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 2 Peter 2:9.
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7.

1 John 5
11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Revelation 19 (NASB)
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many (AP)diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it {the New Heavens and New Earth/New Jerusalem}, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

There's a few verses to consider.
I might be back with more later.
Rick

[Guest]

You could add:

Pro 10:25 When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more, But the righteous has an everlasting foundation.

Pro 12:7 The wicked are overthrown and are no more, But the house of the righteous will stand.

Pro 24:16,20 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity... For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.

Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness...

I am more interested in the Universalist understanding of the verses from 2 Thessalonians that I quoted earlier than any of these. I just thought they might be worth considering in additiion to the ones Rick posted.

God bless,

[_Rick_C]

Hi Derek, long time no post,

Good job on the more verses.

Rick

[Guest]

Replies to Steve7150, Mike, and Derek:

I wrote:

As Bob said, if universalism is true, I see no point to it all. Why are we here, and why do (and have) Christians gone through so many travails only to wind up in the same condition as their tormentors? Think of it: the martyrs who were tortured to death will be joined in heaven with those who murdered them, after the wicked go through "rehab", of course.
If the fate of the wicked is not eternal, or the annihilationist view is not correct, no universalist can prove the duration of the punishment of the wicked

And Steve7150 replied:

So Homer it sounds like the value you place in your walk with Christ is significantly affected by how God deals with those "other" people?

Not in the least. Though He slay me, or them, "yet will I trust Him".

Because if God deals with them in a way other then retribution then what is the point of this walk with Christ?

I do not understand the point of this life if it is other than a testing ground to provide a basis for glorifying God and separation of the wheat from the tares. And I do not understand the Lord's use of the story of the wheat and tares which are burned (destroyed) at the end of the harvest. That story counts a one point for annihilation and is a blow to Universalism. How do the tares that are thrown into the fire and burned become wheat? Perhaps one of the universalists can explain that one.

Am i misrepresenting your statement and apparently Bob agrees with you that the relationship with Christ is not enough by itself because you gentlemen need retribution to really feel content. Please correct me if i misunderstood.

Misrepresentation? Yes. Need retribution? Not at all. Consider yourself corrected.

Mike wrote:

Nice argument over 'apolesai' (from Strong's 622 = apollumi). Mind if I put a universalist spin on that?

Glad to be of service; but I haven't been converted to CU (hey - that's a handy shortcut). We must all be concerned with truth, not winning. If we win without truth, we lose.

And Mike wrote:

Regarding your comment re: the martyrs being joined together in heaven with their murderers, isn't that exactly what you believe yourself ? (So long as the murderer repents before he/she dies). Elizabeth Elliott's husband was murdered by someone who later turned to Christ. There are countless examples of this. As the thread on "Does death end our ability to choose" has demonstrated, it is difficult to show from scripture that repentance is impossible after death.

I agree with your other comments. In regard to this statement, the efficacy of Jesus' atonement knows no bounds. It may be difficult to show that repentance is not possible after death. Almost as difficult as it has been for CUs to prove that it is. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin. I have long believed that for some hardened people (example: Pharoah) there comes a time in this life where repentance is practically impossible, they have been judged.

"The Holy Spirit will not contend with man forever". When do you think that point comes?

Derek wrote:

Well, a whole lot could be said about this. I lean toward conditional immortality as well.
The strongest verse for this postion is 2 Thessolonians 1:9.

I haven't done much study on annihilationalism, but if this passage is the strongest proof of it, there isn't much. Regarding the term "eternal destruction" (destruction eternal, olethros aionios);
since olethros can mean: "ruin, destroy, death", this verse can not prove annihilation. In 1 Timothy 6:9, Paul uses it to describe those yet alive who suffer physical ruin from indulging the flesh. So eternal destruction in this passage can mean eternal ruin. If it means complete destruction, eternal would add no meaning so is pointless. The CU can point to aionios and say it does not mean eternal but if the word olethros means "destruction" they are undone and if it means "ruined" they must somehow show people are reformed by being ruined. I have no doubt they will explain it away.

It also doesn't make sense according to eternal torment, because you can't "eternally destroy" something. It is rather the destruction that is eternal.
It also makes sense when compared with Jesus' statement in Matt. 10:28:

Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But they can be eternally in a state of ruin, as many are for much of their lives here.

Blessings to all!

[Guest]

Hi Derek,

I've been taking a closer look at 2 Thess 1:6-9, with Annihilationism in mind:

2Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

A couple of thoughts occurred to me:

The "destruction" spoken of in verse 9 is olethros, which does mean ruination or destruction, but of what? Elsewhere the word seems to refer to the destruction of one's life. In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul uses it to speak of destroying the sinful nature in order to save the spirit. The text of 2 Thess 1:9 doesn't specify the scope of the destruction; whether it is loss of life, loss of temporal power or complete annihilation of being.

I wonder also, if olethros means complete and utter annihilation, wouldn't qualifying it with eternal be redundant?

The next thought re 1:9 has to do with time. Is aionios properly translated as eternal? Even if it is, the question of the scope of destruction remains; but I don't believe aionios refers to eternal. This has been, and continues to be discussed at length. In a seperate thread, Paidion has argued convincingly that aion (the noun form) and aionios (the adjective form) never mean eternal. I won't rehash all that here, but will point out three representative examples (out of many) of aion/aionios not meaning eternal:

In 1 Tim 1:9 aionios has a beginning. The beginning of eternity?
In Gal 1:4, Paul speaks of the present evil aion. The present evil eternity?
In Matt. 13:39, Jesus speaks of the harvest at the end of this aion. A harvest at the end of eternity?

Additionally there are a multitude of instances of the plural form of aion, which is a real mind-bender. Multiple eternities?

If aionios is given the meaning in 2 Thess 1:9 that it consistently has elsewhere, which is "an age" or "a time", then I think it actually makes olethros more sensical (whatever the scope of olethros is) as a "time of ruin".

I can see how the passage might appear to support Conditional Immortality on first blush, but on closer examination it doesn't seem all that strong. It can just as easily support eternal torment or the punishment prior to universal salvation.

[Guest]

If it means complete destruction, eternal would add no meaning so is pointless.

Eternal adds plenty of meaning Homer. They are destroyed in such a way as is irreversable. The state of being destroyed is eternal. It adds as much meaning as it would if used with the rendering "ruin". They would be in a state, of either being destroyed, or ruined, eternally.

Also, it is translated "destroy" in every major English translation. That doesn't necessarilly prove anything, but it sure adds weight to the rendering "destroyed" in my book.

Do you do agree, that the destruction of the human soul is at least a hypothetical possibility per Matt. 10:28? Or do you disagree with every major translation on this rendering as well? (You would have to do damage to the context as well, if you did disagree, in my opinion).

Also it fits very with the use of the terms "perish, death, and consumed' which are used over and over again in regards to the fate of the unbeliever. As opposed to "eternal life", which is what they would have, if they live forever in hell.

There is not a verse in the bible, to my knowledge, that can be used to prove eternal conscious torment (well maybe one, but I'll just wait and see if you bring it up!). Of course, I believe that they are punished, that there will be weeping, gnashing of teeth, tribulation and distress, but I have been unable to find a verse that says that they are in this state for all of eternity.

On the other hand, I have been able to find many, many verses that say that they will die, be destroyed, consumed, and perish.

God bless,

[Guest]

Hi Danny,

The "destruction" spoken of in verse 9 is olethros, which does mean ruination or destruction, but of what? Elsewhere the word seems to refer to the destruction of one's life. In 1 Cor 5:5, Paul uses it to speak of destroying the sinful nature in order to save the spirit.

It would appear that it is their whole being that is in view, because that is what Paul is speaking of. He says "who shall be punished..." The "who" that "shall be punished", is what is being destroyed. The destruction is their punishment.

I wonder also, if olethros means complete and utter annihilation, wouldn't qualifying it with eternal be redundant?

No, it wouldn't be. Eternal destruction would be a final end. Paul is making a distinction between mere physical destruction, and utter annhilation. Both are possibilities (Matt. 10:28). Or, he could also just be adding it for emphasis coudl he not?

I am not convinced that aionios never means eternal, (such as eternal life) but I admitinglly need to study up on that.

It can just as easily support eternal torment or the punishment prior to universal salvation.

I suppose you're right. But you, like Homer, have to disagree with the rendering of the word in most English translations (all of the the main ones). Which isn't inherently bad or anything, it just raises a few flags in my opinion. Of course, I disagree with a lot of them on certain things as well. Perhaps they are biased in regards to this topic.


God bless,

[_Rick_C]

Hi Homer,

In reference to:
Mat 10:28 (RSV)
And fear not those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul.
But rather fear the one who is able to destroy (apolesai) both soul and body in gehenna.

Lu 12:4-5 (RSV)
4. But I say to you, my friends, fear not those who kill the body and after these things have nothing left to do. 5. But I will show you whom to fear. Fear the one who, after killing, has authority to cast one into gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear this one.

I had commented: In any event and needless to say, there were certainly Pharisees in the crowd Jesus spoke to. Based on the teachings of Jesus alone in these texts, it seems he taught 'conditional immortality' both privately to his disciples and to the public: That he 'just said it' over and against 'eternal torment' and/or Pharisaical doctrine. I don't see how another conclusion can be reached on this (?).

And you replied: But the Greek word apolesai may mean annihilate or it might mean "rendered useless", or something else, according to the lexicons. It is interesting Jesus didn't say "destroy" in the parallel place (Luke).

Breaking Matt. 10:28 into its clauses:

And fear not those who kill the body,
Jesus tells his hearers not to fear those who can kill them physically.

but are not able to kill the soul.
Though those who can kill the body are able to kill it, Jesus assures them they are not able to kill their souls afterward; the possible or probable implication being: There is someone else [God, see below] who does have the power to kill their souls after their bodies had been killed. If Jesus had said, "because [they] are not able to kill the soul" then we could say Jesus taught immortality of souls in this passage. With the word "but" we have a contrast between what humans can and cannot do: Can: kill bodies but: Cannot: kill souls.

But rather fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna.
This sentence is a contrast and comparison to 10:28a and 10:28b, "But rather".
Humans can kill and even temporarily destroy a person's body. I say 'temporarily' with reference to the general [physical] resurrection of the just and unjust. Even if a person were to be killed and completely burned to ashes, the ashes would still exist, the smoke from the burning would go into the atmosphere and remain in it in one form or another. Take cremation as an example. The person's ashes remain in an urn and what had gone up in smoke from their bodies remains inside the atmosphere. Therefore, their body though dead and destroyed through cremation still has physical existence though the person is dead. In this sense no human body can currently be absolutely destroyed physically: "from dust to dust."

There are many passages in the Bible where the "destruction" of a person or persons is synonymous with their being "killed"and vice versa. Persons are said to to have been killed, without having been said to have been destroyed; persons are said to have been destroyed, without having been said to have been killed. But the meaning is the same: they were [both] killed and destroyed or destroyed and killed, synonymously. I trust I don't need to give any examples but can if asked.

I see no reason to take this verse in another way. In other words, though the destruction of the souls in gehenna by God isn't specifically stated as his "killing" their souls, there is the contrast between what people can do and what God can do. In Jesus' train of thought he seems to be making a direct comparison in this way; that God can kill both body and soul in gehenna (or Hell).

Re: the Greek apolesai
Verb, [an] action, what has happened, is happening, or will happen
Aorist Tense, "an occurance" or "one-time-action" without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action, which may or may not take place over a period of time.
Active Voice, who does the action, here: God, "the one"
Infinitive Mood, corresponds to the English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to" prefixed, as "to destroy"
From apollumi
Meanings (determined by context):
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell*
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

*Note, 1e) has an 'eternal torment' doctrinal bias, imo; 'eternal' cannot be derived from apolesai itself; while the doctrine could be true, it's not in this text. Therefore, on a textual basis, I reject this definition.
(Source: NeXt Bible, aka, the new online NET Bible)

Homer,
All major English versions translate apolesai as "destroy" and I know of no translations that have it as "render useless". Though the lexicons do have other and all meanings, depending on each context, I'm trusting the experts this time on their translations. That the word does have alternate meanings has been a primary argument by the universalists on the forum where they, if I'm not mistaken, insist that: Apollumi (and its derivatives) NEVER means "to be destroyed" or "to be killed" in any passage that has to do with anyone's destiny after death. They've argued that since it CAN mean "to lose" it therefore, CANNOT [EVER] mean, "to be destroyed, killed", etc. *Note, I just read a post where a universalist posted in so many words: Though it CAN mean "be destroyed" this destruction is NOT permanent and IS temporary. No further comments on that at this time.

For argument's sake, lets say it does mean "to render useless" in our verse. This could be presented as an argument against both universalism and 'eternal torment'.
Against universalism: If someone has been rendered totally useless, attempting to "teach them corrective lessons while they are in Hell" would be, uhmmm....useless!
Against 'eternal torment': If the wicked dead in Hell are of no worth whatever, having no useful purpose; God has no purpose in pouring out his wrath on them: "they aren't worth it"! (You're welcome, Danny & Crew),

But, of course, the word in Matthew 10:28 means "destroy" (as in to be killed).....

May God grant us the boldness to speak His Word,
and to encourage the ones who need His salvation,
having mercy on some, snatching others from the fire,
Amen.
Rick

P.S. I didn't get to the Luke passage, maybe later.

[_Rick_C]

This is copied & pasted from a post of mine since we're on apollumi here. I've done some minor editing.

Some universalists who post here have taken the "to lose" meaning as THE ONLY meaning. In other words, though the Greek word actually has more than one meaning which is determined by its usage (context) like with the "lost sheep" (where it obviously doesn't mean destroyed): They argue it NEVER means 'to be destroyed, will perish, be put to death', etc., in terms of the fate of unbelievers. However, I saw where one says it CAN mean "be destroyed" but that the destruction is somehow TEMPORARY (???).

Interesting note.
The Jews of Jesus' day thought that when someone couldn't be found after they were intently looked for [being lost] or if someone didn't return after leaving some place [were missing]; they assumed they were dead. This is seen in the story of the Prodigal Son.

Luke 15, picking up at the return
20"So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost {Greek, apolwlws, from apollumi} and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

What I'm pointing out is being lost/missing can, and did, indicate that someone was dead to the Jews of Jesus' day: Lost/missing = dead, till proven otherwise.

Apollumi (and its derivatives, taken in context as in the above passage) can mean something or someone could be lost and, also, may no longer exist or be dead. Therefore, The Prodigal Son Story shows that apollumi doesn't ALWAYS point to an existing thing or person that is lost or missing and can be found...as at least some universalists have said.

Right now.
I'm working on all possible translations of Matt. 10:28 and will post them for our examination soon.
Rick