Does death end our ability to choose?

[Guest]

At the risk of taking fire in the flurry that is the debate over Christian Universalism, I have to ask this question.

The following was posited by Rick C specifically, but others opposed to CU have made this assertion as well (see bold):

The Bible teaches that salvation comes to those who believe before they die; namely, "saved" people won't go to Hell. Universalism's denial of this shows just how far they oppose what the Bible says. Secondly, the Bible is so crystal clear that salvation is obtained before death! But universalists are, somehow, blind to it. What the reason or reasons for this are, I don't know....

While I find much in the Scriptures that urges people that the time for salvation is now (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I'm not aware of any Scriptures that state that one's eternal destiny is fixed at the point of death.

Can someone provide some verses?


Dave

[Guest]

“God forbid that I should limit the time for acquiring faith to the present life. In the depths of the Divine Mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future state.” - Martin Luther (Letter to Hansen von Rechenberg, 1522)

[_Rick_C]

Hi Dave,

First, I'm assuming you meant "our ability to choose to be saved" since we have been debating universalism. My position on it is: No, no one can get saved after they die because it is simply to late. Anyway...

While I find much in the Scriptures that urges people that the time for salvation is now (with which I wholeheartedly agree), I'm not aware of any Scriptures that state that one's eternal destiny is fixed at the point of death.

Can someone provide some verses?

Yes, indeed the time is NOW (when people live)!

I'm not aware of any words from verses, phrases from verses, verses, chapters, books, Bibles, Apostles, or any Jesuses who taught that when [all] people die they will be be judged on any other basis than their lives.

If one verse can be provided that states otherwise, I'll participate in the discussion!
Just one, that states it 'crystal clear' is all I need....

Otherwise, the idea that the Bible or anyone in it taught that people won't be completely and finally judged when they die---that they will get a second chance---isn't an idea that comes from the Bible: Not from the believing people described in it who, also, wrote it.

Have a good weekend,
Rick

P.S. Dave, usually 'cross-posting' isn't done on the web (as you've taken one of my posts and made a new thread with it). "Netiquette" they call it. But in this case, I don't really mind, ... I'm working on a new thread and this is a good topic! if you didn't say so my/our/selfs!

[Guest]

Rick,

If one verse can be provided, I'll participate in the discussion!
Just one, that plainly states it is all I need.

With all due respect (and I do respect what you say), I think you unfairly turned Dave's question around on him brother.

Dave,

I think the verses that immediately come to mind that most people use are:

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
NKJV

and the story of Lazurus and the rich man in Luke 16.

Although, having heard the counter-arguments to these passages, I don't think an iron-clad case can be made (contextually) that they necessarily have the meaning we usually ascribe to them.

[Guest]

Schoel,

Consider this:

Hebrews 9:27-28 (New King James Version)

27. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

(as) We die a physical death once, we face judgement once, (so) Christ died for us once, never to be repeated. The bible knows nothing of repeated judgement(s), any more than it knows of Jesus repeatedly dying for us. Or do the Universalists think the condemned get a pass later without a judgement? After all, they say they will be saved "just like us".

[_Rick_C]

Christopher, long time, no post,

Although, having heard the counter-arguments to these passages, I don't think an iron-clad case can be made (contextually) that they necessarily have the meaning we usually ascribe to them.

I know of no cases when any verse, or verses taken together from the universalist interpretations, have any merit whatsovever. I've never seen them taken in context nor interpreted from authorial intention and meaning.

Unlike some folks who post or who read and post on this forum; I don't see universalism as a 'viable' option.

At the same time, as I've been looking into universalist beliefs and the Scriptures universalists cite; I've learned more about those verses. But as of yet, I see none that supports their positions in terms of what the authors intended and meant [what those verses said]. Like with 1 Timothy 4:10...'universalism' wasn't an issue for Paul nor Timothy. Both men wanted the Gospel to be universally-heard but that's something quite different than what we've been debating!

With all due respect (and I do respect what you say), I think you unfairly turned Dave's question around on him brother.

I don't think it was unfair. First, (speaking about being 'fair'); he quoted me from another thread. But I don't mind in this case...though I have when people did this before (and the problem was resolved). But since Dave did quote me from another thread, I figured I had better chime in as I've been accused of being a Calvinist [I'm no more a Calvinist than a Universalist!]...among several other things I won't go into [excepting I'm not Dante!],

However, I agree I 'turned Dave's question around'. My reasons for doing it was, A. I got quoted so I figured it was 'free game' (but much more importantly), B. the question can't be derived from the Bible or biblical thought. Sure, it's a legitimate question to ask, as far as peoples' curiosity goes. We all have that. But in terms of 'thinking biblically' which is our responsibility, the real question is: Did anyone in the Bible say we can choose to become saved after we die? The answer is: No.

Have a good weekend everybody,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

Along with Homer and Christopher, who quoted He 9:27-28,

Hebrews 9:27-28 (New King James Version)

27. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

(as) We die a physical death once, we face judgement once, (so) Christ died for us once, never to be repeated. The bible knows nothing of repeated judgement(s), any more than it knows of Jesus repeatedly dying for us. Or do the Universalists think the condemned get a pass later without a judgement? After all, they say they will be saved "just like us".

First, in my new thread I'll show how universalism doesn't teach "salvation" at all, with the exception of those who believe before they die. Universalsists are more or less 'traditional' on that part, as far as I know [Christians, who believe while they're alive go to heaven]...though the other things universalists believe present many, many problems, even if they agree with 'traditional' Christian teachings in part.

The Bible also knows nothing of "being sent to Hell as a 'corrective' experience" in which God will (eventually, how long, who knows?) bring those who are in Hell out of it, in order that they may be with Him forever.

Agreed, Homer: There won't be any other new "pass" to escape judgment other than 'faith-before-you-die' in Jesus and the sacrifice of He made on our [and everyone's] behalf.

The Bible never says anything that could be interpreted to mean, "You can choose to be a Christian after you die." It's simply not there. It might be nice [or what have you] if it was, but it's not.

Universalists have been saying, "Unbelievers will be saved just like us," meaning that, after being sent to Hell for however long, they will confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. Nothing in the Bible says anything remotely about this as being possible or becoming a potential reality. For one thing, the unbelievers who get sent to Hell will NOT have been saved! (as all Christians always have, are, and will be). Universalism denies this salvation---which is biblical salvation! and the only salvation it teaches!---is needed to be with God forever.

One life, one death, one judgment.
Believe now before it is too late!

Rick

[Guest]

Hello Schoel,

Jesus said in John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned: he has crossed over from death to life.

I don't know how the CU's would explain what Jesus meant here from their view. My take, Jesus is saying "the cross over point" from which one
moves from death to life is through simple belief while the person is alive in this age. There is no need to look for hidden meanings to Jesus words or force them to say anything more than what He said or intended. If Jesus calls us to be "as children" in accepting the Kingdom, then to be like a child in this case is to simply accept what Jesus is saying without looking for "loopholes". There are numerous verses we could bring to bear from the Psalms, Ecclesiastes and others which describes what the "dead in Sheol" cannot do, namely, "nothing" in the sense of the daily activity we do in this age or life span. Like Hebrews teach, It is appointed for us to die once then face judgement, as Daniel 12 speaks of the Judgement, some will be raised to everlasting life, the rest will be raised to everlasting contempt. There is an "either/ or" sense about it. Repent or perish! Jesus left no other option. I think its safe to assume the time for repentance is now! We have neither a hint or promise from Jesus or the Apostles that would suggest otherwise.

Cheers!
Bob

[Guest]

Rick wrote:

I'm not aware of any words from verses, phrases from verses, verses, chapters, books, Bibles, Apostles, or any Jesuses who taught that when [all] people die they will be be judged on any other basis than their lives.

If one verse can be provided that states otherwise, I'll participate in the discussion!
Just one, that states it 'crystal clear' is all I need....

Hi Rick. I'm not sure why a CU would be intrested in providing verses as you have described. From my understanding CUs (esspecially those posting here) agree that all will be judged based on their lives. However, the question still remains. Does this Judgment mean that there is no possibility of reconciliation for those that are lost or cast into the LOF?

It seems that this is what you are saying. Perhaps you can give some scriptual support for this belief.

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

Hebrews 6:1-2
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

This gives an overview of the Christian life. We see three couplets of thought. Repentance and faith deal with entering the Kingdom. Baptism and Laying on of Hands deal with being part of a community of faith where discipleship takes place for the preparation of the call that is on ones life, then is sent out to fulfill their destiny on the earth. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment deals with how they lived as a believer, along with the idea that their will be a coming jugment of all mankind. We see that the judgment is an eternal judgment. If Universal Reconciliation will take place at some point after the resurrection of the dead, why does the writer of Hebrews refer to the jugdment as eternal in nature (instead of lets say maybe temporal judgment)?