Does death end our ability to choose?

Post by **_Derek** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:11 pm

Yes, The Inescapable Love of God is on my list. Paidion and Todd both highly recommended it. I read some stuff on his website a while back. Interesting that he said that Hannah Whital Smith was a Universalist. Her book The Christian's Secret to A Happy Life is wonderful. I've read it twice.

I'll read the freebee for sure.

Thanks

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:23 pm

Mort_Coyle wrote:I believe the wrath of God has more to do with realizing and reaping the fruits of one's own sin rather than God intentionally and vindictively applying violence.

Me too!

Todd

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:19 pm

I've got the 1880 edition of The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life on my nightstand. As I understand it, the Universalist chapters were removed by publishers in later editions.

Here is a neat little excerpt from her autobiography:
http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/T ... yLife.html

Post by **__id_1679** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:13 pm

Hi Derek,

Here is a link containg a rebuttal to CU by Eric Landstrom and a debate
he had with Tom Talbott. There are several pages. Good reading.

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html

In Jesus,
Bob

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:43 pm

Wow, that chart reminds me of those old Clarence Larkin Dispensationalism charts!

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:58 am

Greetings,

From the link Bob gave I read the debate between Eric Landstrom (non-universalist) versus Tom Talbott (universalist). It looks like it was originally on a message board (or forum) and isn't very long as Talbott left the debate. It seems, however, that they had been debating before but we can't tell how long.

What struck me was how similar it was to the debate(s) we've had on this forum. The same arguments, same issues, etc. Talbott made an appeal that universalism has been believed in church history, citing Origen and others. This is a form of a logical fallacy known as the 'Appeal to Popularity' -- which basically says, "Since what I believe is or has been 'popular' therefore, what I believe is true."

I wasn't surprised to see Lundstrum say, "To conclude that all are made righteous in the after life is a giant leap to make without direct Scriptural support." This is what I've called the 'Argument from Silence' in our debates here: That universalists believe things the Bible is completely silent about: Namely, that salvation is possible after death. But there's no need to go into that again now.

What also stood out, but wasn't surprising, was Talbott's complete disregard for Paul's train of thought in the book of Romans. Talbott's 'ripping out' certain verses from Romans and using them for 'proof-texts'....

As a wise man said, There is nothing new under the sun.
Anyways....

Thanks for the link, Bob,

Rick

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:21 pm

Rick_C wrote:That universalists believe things the Bible is completely silent about: Namely, that salvation is possible after death.

I don't see it this way. I don't believe that it is a matter of making a choice after death. It was all finished at the cross. At the resurrection, with the completion of God's wrath, it will be a realization of the fact that Christ is Lord of all - no choice will be needed. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ as Lord....and God will be all in all. Christ reconciled the whole world at the cross.

The only choice we have is in this life; to obey him and reap eternal life, or to disobey and reap punishment. But, as has been said before, the punishment is proportional, and once complete all will be raised in Christ.

Todd

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:44 pm

Hello Todd,

You wrote:I don't see it this way. I don't believe that it is a matter of making a choice after death. It was all finished at the cross. At the resurrection, with the completion of God's wrath, it will be a realization of the fact that Christ is Lord of all - no choice will be needed. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Christ as Lord....and God will be all in all. Christ reconciled the whole world at the cross.

I see. Everyone is "predestined" to be saved or are "already saved" (somehow) in your view. I don't agree with either the Calvinistic type predestination nor yours. Of course, you probably already knew that....

You also wrote wrote:The only choice we have is in this life; to obey him and reap eternal life, or to disobey and reap punishment. But, as has been said before, the punishment is proportional, and once complete all will be raised in Christ.

I'll refer you back to the 1 Corinthians 15 thread where I said you haven't successfully demonstrated that Paul was even talking about 'the resurrection of non-believers' in the chapter: Which I believe he was not. But, I'm sure you remember that too....

Have a good day,
Rick