Does death end our ability to choose?

[Guest]

Hello Schoel,

We certainly cannot make a doctrine or a truth claim from silence. I do believe the bible doesn't have to say the words;" there is no redemption for the wicked dead out of the Lake of Fire" for us to conclude that there is NO EXIT, NO REDEMPTION, NO POSSIBILITY OF REPENTANCE OR RESTORATION, RECONCILLIATION for those who suffer the fate of the SECOND DEATH in the LAKE of FIRE.

I think God believes we are reasonably intelligent to understand His word without ambiguity here, that the fate of the WICKED dead will never have a share in the world to come.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Todd,

Quote: "So it shall be for mankind. Every transgression and disobedience will receive its just reward, unless one is pardoned (through faith) by the Judge (Christ)."

So you do hold out the posibility that one can remain in an "unpardoned"
state? What btw do you mean by a "just reward", proportional justice, etc. You have yet to answer this.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Your use of Rev 3:19 as a universalist "proof text" is another case of a
"pretext" looking for a context! Jesus is addressing believers in the Churches who were alive. He is not addressing the wicked dead, nor calling them to repentance out of the Lake of Fire!

Bob, I did'nt claim it as a prooftext but a principal "whom he loves he chastens" and my question was, Who does he love?
Well Bob, who does Jesus love? It's a serious question Bob, i'd like to see an answer.


TO HIM WHO IS THIRSTY I WILL GIVE TO DRINK WITHOUT COST FROM THE SPRING OF THE WATER OF LIFE. HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL INHERIT ALL THIS, and I will be his GOD, and HE will be my son.
BUT, to the cowardly, THE UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars-THEIR PLACE WILL BE IN THE FIERY LAKEOF BURNING SULPHUR.
THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH."


Bob, I take this as Jesus speaking to the folks in the LOF who want to repent (THIRSTY) as being invited to drink the water of life. Believers already have life, they have already drank the water of life.
Notice Bob, here you can see the COWARDLY listed with the MURDERERS both in the LOF yet to you there is no difference.
Hitler and some timid young lady will burn in hell with no possibility of repentence, no possibility of forgiveness for either Hitler or the timid young lady.
Yet on the cross Jesus said "Father forgive THEM for they know not what they do."

Sorry Dave, i'll try to answer your question.

[Guest]

Bob,

You asked,

So you do hold out the posibility that one can remain in an "unpardoned" state?

If a felon serves his time in prison, he has not been pardoned; rather, he has paid his debt to society. So it is also with the judgment...if one has not been forgiven by Christ, he must suffer the penalty for his transgression.

What btw do you mean by a "just reward", proportional justice, etc. You have yet to answer this.

Only God knows what is the appropriate penalty for one's sins. Will it be "many stripes" or "few." It depends on the particular act, but it will be proportional. Once the sentence has been served, there will be restoration.

To me, one of the biggest fallacies of the 'eternal torment' view is that every unbeliever receives the same unending punishment whether he/she was a relatively decent person or someone like Hitler. Makes no sense.

Todd

[Guest]

Someone somewhere made the comment that if UR is true, then why wouldnt it be possible to "backslide" after being reconciled. i am not sure if anyone addressed this question. the assertion was made (by Rick I believe) that if a person by act of will can repent while in the LOF, then why couldnt a person in heaven "unrepent." i have never thought that this was possible, but i don't think that any of the UR proponents addressed this question. if a person "unrepented" after being reconciled, would they be tossed back into the LOF until they repent again?

sorry in advance if i breached netiquette by posting this here.

TK

[Guest]

Someone somewhere made the comment that if UR is true, then why wouldnt it be possible to "backslide" after being reconciled. i am not sure if anyone addressed this question. the assertion was made (by Rick I believe) that if a person by act of will can repent while in the LOF, then why couldnt a person in heaven "unrepent." i have never thought that this was possible, but i don't think that any of the UR proponents addressed this question. if a person "unrepented" after being reconciled, would they be tossed back into the LOF until they repent again?

sorry in advance if i breached netiquette by posting this here.

TK

TK,

In the resurrection everyone will have new uncorruptible bodies which are not susceptible to fleshly lusts or temptations. Sin motivators will be gone when the flesh is destroyed. There will be "no more sin" there. That's my view anyway.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Quote: "If a felon serves his time in prison, he has not been pardoned; rather, he has paid his debt to society. So it is also with the judgment...if one has not been forgiven by Christ, he must suffer the penalty for his transgression."

But wait a minute! Do you understand what you are saying? .."if one has not been forgiven by Christ, he must suffer the penalty for his transgressions". Therefore, the conclusion must follow your premise logically. What you said in essense in this example, is a persons transgressions are not vicariously atoned for by the blood of Jesus. He is paying for his own sin.
If this is the case, he is not pardoned at all! "No condemnation"is for those who are in Christ alone. Rom 8.

Quote: "To me, one of the biggest fallacies of the 'eternal torment' view is that every unbeliever receives the same unending punishment whether he/she was a relatively decent person or someone like Hitler. Makes no sense".

So you do have an opinon of what "proportional justice" involves! You are saying that if God punishes eternally those who have rejected Christ, whether they be " relatively decent" or a Hitler type, if they recieve the same "unending punishment" , it would make no sense to you?

Todd, do you want to give a little more thought to your comment? Maybe revise it? Do you understand what you are saying/implying? Do you not see the the gross error in your reasoning here? Before I give comment
on this one, perhaps it would be wise for you to prayerfully consider what you are saying.

In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

If a felon serves his time in prison, he has not been pardoned; rather, he has paid his debt to society. So it is also with the judgment...if one has not been forgiven by Christ, he must suffer the penalty for his transgression.

But wait a minute! Do you understand what you are saying? .."if one has not been forgiven by Christ, he must suffer the penalty for his transgressions". Therefore, the conclusion must follow your premise logically. What you said in essense in this example, is a persons transgressions are not vicariously atoned for by the blood of Jesus. He is paying for his own sin.
If this is the case, he is not pardoned at all! "No condemnation"is for those who are in Christ alone. Rom 8.

Bob,

I stand by what I wrote, but it seems by your comment that you misunderstand. Here's what I am saying...

Believers are pardoned by Christ and do not come into condemnation. Unbelievers have not been pardoned and therefore must suffer the consequences of their transgressions. These consequences are proportional to their works. Once their punishment is complete they are restored into the fellowship of the sons of God.

To me, one of the biggest fallacies of the 'eternal torment' view is that every unbeliever receives the same unending punishment whether he/she was a relatively decent person or someone like Hitler. Makes no sense.

So you do have an opinon of what "proportional justice" involves! You are saying that if God punishes eternally those who have rejected Christ, whether they be " relatively decent" or a Hitler type, if they recieve the same "unending punishment" , it would make no sense to you?

That is correct. Makes no sense to me. Bob, would it make sense to you to get sentenced to life in prison for a parking ticket?

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Quote: "That is correct. Makes no sense to me. Bob, would it make sense to you to get sentenced to life in prison for a parking ticket?"

Of course not! But then again, we are not talking about parking tickets, are we? We are not even talking about the heinious sins of Hitler or the seemingly 'minor' peccadillos of "Franny Frump". We are talking about the
ultimate sin. A sin that has no remedy in the age to come. It is the sin against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I am talking about the deliberate wilfull rejection of His provision for all sinners! This kind of sin has no remedy without repentance. You may "weigh" the sins of finite men in a human court of appeal. But with the Holy and just One, you can never cry "injustice", even if you have suffered an injustice from your fellow man. Why do you suppose Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek? Why do you suppose He tells us if we are compelled to walk a mile-go two? Why do you suppose He answered to those who complained about a tower that fell upon apparently "innocent people" that He said, "Do you suppose that these people were worse sinners? "No I tell you Jesus said. BUT IF YOU DO NOT REPENT, YOU WILL ALL PERISH! A relationship with Jesus involves total surrender. You and I have no rights! We have become the 'willing slaves' of the King! DO YOU GET IT YET?

Todd, if God were to blow up the entire universe right now with you and me and all of creation, and every person were to perish out of His sight, would you charge God with being unjust? I think you have a very shallow understanding of sin. I really think you believe God owes you salvation.
I also think you believe God judges people on a "curve" or on a scale of your own imagination!

People do not go to the Lake of Fire for all eternity merely because they are 'sinners' Todd. They'll go to the Lake of Fire because Jesus ultimately will say to them "I NEVER KNEW YOU. DEPART FROM YOU ACCURSED."

[Guest]

I didn't notice whether or not anyone put forth this verse.

2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
2Pe 3:6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter says that the reason Jesus has not returned, is that He doesn't want anyone to perish. I would think that this meant when He does come back, those that haven't repented at that time will perish.

It would seem that it wouldn't matter one way or the other if Universalism were true. I could understand if it said He doesn't wish anyone to be punished, but it says "perish". Do Universalists have a different understanding of "perish"?

Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

I don't agree with 1e. I think that is a pretty unobjective definition.

Strongs say it means to destroy.

Any thoughts?