Universalism and the Character of God

[karenstricycle]

The character of God has been one of the main themes in arguments put forth by the Universalists in support of their position. It should be the concern of all of us, lest we make an idol for ourselves to replace the one true God.

Has either the traditionalist or the Universalist made up their own God to suit their preference? Perhaps we should consider facts in an attempt to arrive at a true picture of God. By "facts" I mean "acts" or "deeds" (Latin factum, i.e., that which has been done). Facts, as it has been said, are stubborn things - they are always true. Pretty difficult to "spin" to fit our paradigm.

As Steve7150 has written:

......there is a fundamental difference between how the two sides view the character of God.
IMHO you view God as vengeful and petty and unmerciful to the vast majority of mankind. ...........Jesus's character was the exact image of God's.

Here are some points to consider:

1. Jesus is the exact image of God. Does the God of the Old Testament portray Jesus falsely or is Jesus' character the same as God is shown to be by facts in the Old Testament? (Or did God repent and become a Christian?)

2. It would seem we have more facts about God than we do about Jesus.

3. Many facts about God would seem to better fit with either the eternal punishment or anihilationist view. The flood, Sodom and Gomarrah (anihilationist?), the children of Israel in the desert, the destruction (judging) of entire nations, etc., etc. Doesn't the scripture inform us He never changes?

4. When Israel was taken away into captivity, only a remnant was reconciled. How does this fit with the universalist paradigm? Wouldn't God, as the Universalists see Him, have reconciled them all?

5. When Jesus said "narrow is the path and few there be that find it", did He mean "few" only in a temporary sense or something else? The facts of the Old Testament would support Jesus statement as literal.

6. What facts can the Universalists adduce to support their view of the character of God?

Just some thoughts "off the top of my head.

[Guest]

1. Jesus is the exact image of God. Does the God of the Old Testament portray Jesus falsely or is Jesus' character the same as God is shown to be by facts in the Old Testament? (Or did God repent and become a Christian?)


Homer, No God did'nt repent from the OT because for the vast majority of the time which was several thousand years He was merciful but we all tend to focus on a few specific events.
These events were when God destroyed nations because of wickedness which no one has argued against and which Jesus said would also happen to Jerusalem in 70AD.
Eternal torment in hell is completely , 180 degrees different then destruction.
As God said Himself in Jer 7 , throwing chidren into the fire of gehenna was DETESTABLE although they burned for a brief period of time.
Yet despite the fact God called this detestable , your side defends eternal burning/punishing of sinners.

[karenstricycle]

Steve7150,

These events were when God destroyed nations because of wickedness which no one has argued against and which Jesus said would also happen to Jerusalem in 70AD.
Eternal torment in hell is completely , 180 degrees different then destruction.

But anihilation is the same!

[Guest]

Has either the traditionalist or the Universalist


BTW the eternal tormenters like to call themselves "traditional" or "conservative" and to portray us as either liberal or even new agey.
The facts are as Steve G. has mentioned the first 4 out of 6 Christian churches must have been liberal or new age.
As we know the RCC won out and every extra biblical doctrine they came out with had one common effect, it increased their power.
What could be the ultimate weapon? The threat of eternal torment and with that the sale of forgiveness for a price to be paid to them.
This is one of the gifts from one of the beasts of Revelation.

[Guest]

But anihilation is the same!



Homer, I don't follow, the same as what? You mean the same as destruction, if you mean that i agree it is and i have no problem with annhilation from a moral point of view.

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I appreciate the objection you bring in this thread by citing OT examples of God's wrath. I will admit that I have a hard time understanding the severity of God's wrath in some of these stories. However, I must say that in none of these stories do we have an example of "eternal torment" or "annihilation." These people died and will some day be resurrected. Has God's wrath against these people already been realized? I don't know. Is there more punishment for them when Christ returns? I don't know. But I do believe that their punishment will be proportional to their sin, just as it is today for the disobedient. Each transgression and disobedience will receive its just recompense of reward. But what happens after that? Will they be annihilated?....will they be reconciled? I believe that Rom 8:18-23 and 1 Cor 15 tell us that they will be reconciled.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Quote: "But I do believe that their punishment will be proportional to their sin, just as it is today..."

Todd I think its reasonable to ask from who's perspective is punishment proportional to their sin"? Is it from your perspective or Gods?

Remember with one sin, God condemned to death the entire human race.
With one sin, Nadab and Abihu were killed by the Lord. With one violation among 20 citations I provided from the word where a person could be put to death for, no one has given an explanation from a Universalist view, what exactly do you mean by "proportional punishment".

If our society today operated under Mosaic Law most would not only be offended, they would be screaming injustice!!

Christian Universalism (if its right to even call it Christian) imo is an attempt to explain away the justice of God! Justice in the bible is not restricted merely to mean doing right by your neighbor. It is the divine perogative of a Holy Judge to execute sinners as He deems necessary.
Your beliefs have too low of a view of sin. Sin is Cosmic Treason against the King of the Universe. When we sin we are saying in effect, "your ways are not right". What do I have to weigh against this statement? Jesus of Nazareth. He was crucified by those who said; "we will not have this man rule over us. We have but one King Ceasar"..

CU worships a King at the altar of its own making. Christian Universalism is a sham and a lie from the enemy and should be exposed as such.
As I have said before, its the same old lie as told in Eden by the Serpent,
"You shall surely not die".. The lie has been just regurgitated and repackaged ! Get away from it Todd!

Jesus said; "I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except by ME". Nothing mentioned about going through Gehenna

[karenstricycle]

Steve7150, Todd, or any Universalist,

I have asked for facts supporting your position regarding your doctrine & the character of God. We have many facts to show where God has punished and destroyed the wicked. And we know He chastens those who are His:

Hebrews 12:5-11 (New King James Version)

5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


“ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10. For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


We are His sons by adoption. The wicked are not.

We need facts from scripture that show that God punishes the wicked and by doing so brings them to repentance. You say that He must do this according to His nature. Perhaps He has, and done so numerous times. Does He have a history of doing so? I plead ignorance of it. I see many times where he has destroyed the wicked with no possibility of their reconciliation. Please give us some facts that support your position regarding God's character.

[Guest]

Steve7150, Todd, or any Universalist,

....Please give us some facts that support your position....

Homer,

We can debate all day on how one gets from point 'A' to point 'B' but there are several scriptures which tell us how it all turns out in the end. These scriptures have been quoted many times. I'll post them once more. I assume you take scriptures as 'facts'.

Phil 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 8:21
because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

1 Cor 15:26-28
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

Rev 7:9-12
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

I realize that there are several posters on these threads that see these verses differently, but I see them including all of God's creation joyfully praising God in the end. If this is correct, then they must have repented at some point.

Todd

[karenstricycle]

Hi Todd,

The scriptures you listed are not facts.

Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: ˈfakt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
1: a thing done: as aobsolete : feat b: crime <accessory> carchaic : action
2archaic : performance, doing
3: the quality of being actual : actuality <a>
4 a: something that has actual existence <space> b: an actual occurrence <prove>
5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
— in fact : in truth

As we are all painfully aware, the scriptures you listed are true, but they are not facts. The truth in them has meaning to you, shaped by opinion. Events that give us an insight into the character of God, such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, are facts that are less subject to opinion. They are evidence demonstrating how God feels about and deals with certain things.

"Fact" and "truth" are commonly confused. Facts are always true, and all truth is not a fact. Christianity is unique in that it is based on fact. Either Jesus died on a cross and was resurrected from the dead, or He did not. These are facts. That all men will one day be resurrected is a truth but not a fact. It has not yet been done and become fact.

In a court of law, facts obviously are much more weightier than someone's opinion. We have had much opinion here, and precious little fact. There are many facts in scripture that show us how God has dealt with people, and Scripture informs us God is forever the same. The Universalist says God must behave a cetain way consistent with His character. We have a history of God in scripture; I am asking for facts to show to us that God always punishes the wicked unto repentance rather than destruction, or that He has in the past done so.

Let us have some facts!