"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri May 25, 2007 7:13 pm

I assumed this confession and bowing of the knee took place at the white throne judgement but it was to late and the sinners were thrown into the lake of fire forever.
But according to Rev 22.15 it says "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral,murderers,idolators and liars" which means at this late date the prophecy that everyone shall confess Christ as Lord has'nt yet happened but it still must.
And Rev 22.17 says "whosoever may drink from the water of life" and nothing more is said about unbelievers therefore i think this is the point where everyone remaining confesses Christ as Lord.

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:48 pm

Kind of a late response, but I've been thinking.....

The Universalists, at least some of them, maintain that in the hereafter those who are unsaved will undergo an indefinite period of "correction", which is not punishment. Furthermore, as I understand their position, this correction shall last until repentance, i.e., "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess", takes place.

It has been suggested that it will take perhaps a million years or so for a person like Hitler to be "corrected". How does the Universalist know this? Is there some supposed link between the number or seriousness of sins committed in this life and the length (amount?) of "correction" required? How is it known that a good person who is a convinced atheist or agnostic (I know such a person) will not be more difficult to bring to repentance than a person like Hitler?

Is the reason you think it will take so long to "correct" Hitler an emotional response to the great and numerous sins he committed in this life? It would seem the greater suffering inflicted would be related to the degree or amount of sin as punishment, but not correlated to "correction".

Also do you Universalists believe that all through the process of "correction" that the subject has free will?

Do you have any scriptures to support your position on this?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:10 am

Is the reason you think it will take so long to "correct" Hitler an emotional response to the great and numerous sins he committed in this life? It would seem the greater suffering inflicted would be related to the degree or amount of sin as punishment, but not correlated to "correction".

Also do you Universalists believe that all through the process of "correction" that the subject has free will?

As you know Homer the bible does'nt disclose these details therefore these views hinge on how we interpret our much talked about greek words "aionios" and "kolasis."
The traditional view is that they mean eternal punishment and the christian universalist view is that they mean ages upon ages correction.
Paidion gets his millions of years view by multiplying ages X ages = millions.
I doubt such a length of time would be productive but it's just one of the secrets that belong to God.
I would guess that unbelievers would have free will or what would be the point of reconciliation and if that is the case then literally all may not want to be saved. In that case the word "all" may mean all who desire God after all is said and done.
If you're interested in an interview with Louis Abbot who may have studied "aionios" more then anyone else it's at tentmaker.org/audio/video interviews and at glory to glory.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:30 am

Homer wrote:Kind of a late response, but I've been thinking.....

The Universalists, at least some of them, maintain that in the hereafter those who are unsaved will undergo an indefinite period of "correction", which is not punishment. Furthermore, as I understand their position, this correction shall last until repentance, i.e., "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess", takes place.

It has been suggested that it will take perhaps a million years or so for a person like Hitler to be "corrected". How does the Universalist know this? Is there some supposed link between the number or seriousness of sins committed in this life and the length (amount?) of "correction" required? How is it known that a good person who is a convinced atheist or agnostic (I know such a person) will not be more difficult to bring to repentance than a person like Hitler?

Is the reason you think it will take so long to "correct" Hitler an emotional response to the great and numerous sins he committed in this life? It would seem the greater suffering inflicted would be related to the degree or amount of sin as punishment, but not correlated to "correction".

Also do you Universalists believe that all through the process of "correction" that the subject has free will?

Do you have any scriptures to support your position on this?

Hi Homer,

I know your question wasn't really intended for me because I have maintained that God punishes no one after death, but that all His punishment/correction happens during our lifetime while there is still time to repent - for it is in death that the "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" is done away. Even Paul seems to affirm that death itself is the ultimate punishment for the incorrigible (Rom 1:32, 1 Cor 5:5). It seems to me, that in the resurrection, all will be raised with a new spiritual body that does not have a propensity for disobedience as our present one does. Nowhere in the scriptures (that I know of) does it say that the unjust are raised with a different kind of body as the just.

To me, to accuse God of holding someone in an endless, constant state of punishment is to accuse him of the ultimate atrocity. No God who is described as "God is Love" (1 John 4:8 ) could do such a thing.

However, I will offer the following scripture which to some degree is a response to your question. This scripture seems to indicate that punishment is proportional.

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Also, the scriptures which speak of judgment say that judgment will be "according to works", stating that we will receive for the wrong done while in the body (as well as the good) (2 Cor 5:10). This wording to me seems to indicate that the punishment/correction is proportional.

Todd

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:35 am

Steve7150 & Todd,

If kolasis means "pruning" which is meant for correction, then the metaphor would not fit with a long duration. I've done a lot of pruning and most (roses) takes only minutes. Even a large tree would be a matter of hours. And in Jesus figure of pruning in John 15 the fruitless branches are cut off and destroyed.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:51 am

Homer,

While we are on the subject of judgment and punishment, I would like for you (or anyone) to answer this question.

The scriptures seem to be consistent that judgment will be rendered "according to our works" (Matt 16:27, Rom 2:6, 2 Cor 5:10, 1 Pet 1:17, Rev 2:23). They also are consistent that everyone will be judged by this same criteria - that God shows no partiality - and both Christians and non-Christians will undergo the same process. Yet traditional doctrine says that Christians will be judged according to Christ's righteousness (works) and therefore spared any punishment. If this is true, why do these scriptures about judgment not mention this exception? Even Rom 8:1, which talks about there being "no condemnation for those who are in Christ," includes the condition that they must "walk according to the Spirit" which is again talking about our works.

It seems to me, that even non-Christians will be rewarded for the good things they do (as well as the bad), and that Christians will be rewarded for the bad things they do (as well as the good), but that all is proportional, and in the end, everyone is reconciled to God through Christ.

Anyway, I am interested in your thoughts about this because this seems to be a disconnect from traditional teaching.

Todd

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:29 pm

i thought the judging of christians pertains to rewards in the kingdom to come, etc.

judging of non-christians pertains to degrees of punishment, at least thats the traditonal view.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:29 pm

If kolasis means "pruning" which is meant for correction, then the metaphor would not fit with a long duration. I've done a lot of pruning and most (roses) takes only minutes. Even a large tree would be a matter of hours. And in Jesus figure of pruning in John 15 the fruitless branches are cut off and destroyed.

Homer, Pruning trees is one thing, pruning man of sin may be another thing. In John 15 the branches were thrown into the fire and burned.
The greek word "pur" from which we get "purify" is translated as fire so it may be a spiritual fire. Hard to believe? Did'nt Jesus say his words are "spirit and life." Does'nt Jesus use parabolic language more then literal language? And the branch is burned which may be different then destroyed , since it may be the sin is burned off.
And whatever time a person may be in the lake of fire may not only be for pruning perhaps God has something additional in mind which is just one of his secrets Duet 29.29.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:04 pm

Hi Homer,

I think maybe a better translation of "aion" would be "a time". The actual value of "aion" or "a time" varies depending on what it is in reference to. In and of itself, it is indefinite. So the "aion" of a man is about 70 years, whereas the "aion" of God is eternity. The "aion" of the Abrahamic Covenant was roughly 2,000 years (the Hebrew word, olam, translated as everlasting in regards to God's covenant with Abraham is translated as "aion" in the LXX). When Jesus spoke of the end of the "aion", it was about 40 years in the future (70 A.D.)

"Aion" can also speak of the nature of something rather than the duration. So, "aion" punishment from God has more to do with the source of the punishment rather than its duration.

My own view/interpretation is this: God is outside of time. He created the universe and, thus, time. He is "I Am". When we shuffle off this mortal coil, we step out of time like we would step off of a merry-go-round. We enter into the eternal "now-ness" of God. If this is correct (and that's a big if), then speaking of a duration of punishment is irrelevant. There would be nothing to measure it by.

Regarding "kolasis", I think the key point is that it serves a redemptive purpose. If God's punishment doesn't serve a redemptive purpose and is without end, it seems pointless and unspeakably cruel.

As far as free will goes, one has to ask, just how free is free will? Did God respect Saul's free will on the road to Damascus? To what degree are the various choices you make completely free of influence from your environment, culture, upbringing, education, etc.? If I persuade you to change your mind about something, have I violated your free will? I believe that God will ultimately convince everyone to freely choose to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. This turning of His enemies into His friends and worshippers is a much more complete and satisfying victory than if they forever remained His enemies in Hell.

Here's a pretty thorough treatment on "aion" and "aionios":
http://tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:51 pm

Mort, though I consider your explanation of "aion" and existence "outside of time" incredible, I do appreciate much of what you wrote concerning free will. I will now respond to that section:

As far as free will goes, one has to ask, just how free is free will?

100%

Did God respect Saul's free will on the road to Damascus?

Yes

To what degree are the various choices you make completely free of influence from your environment, culture, upbringing, education, etc.?

To no degree at all

If I persuade you to change your mind about something, have I violated your free will?

No

I believe that God will ultimately convince everyone to freely choose to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.

A great belief!

This turning of His enemies into His friends and worshippers is a much more complete and satisfying victory than if they forever remained His enemies in Hell.

AMEN! And again I say, "AMEN!"