In favor of Universalism

[Guest]

Where are the dead? Good question. Are they conscious? Paul gives the impression that those who are "in Christ" are with Christ, but yet describes them as "asleep." As far as those who are not in Christ, whether they died before Him or after, I tend to think that they have no conscious thought, but I have no scriptural basis for that. This topic would probably make a good thread.

Derek,

Here is a quick follow-up to your question about, "where are the dead?" I remembered this scripture which seems like it supports what I said that the dead have no conscious thought.

Ecc 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Todd

[Guest]

Rom 8:20-21
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I find some similarities in these verses. In the first verse the creation is unwillingly subjected to futility. In the second verse all men are bound over to disobedience. These are similar thoughts. Also, in the first verse, all of creation is delivered from death into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. In the second verse God has mercy on all men.

While I can't say for certain that these two verses are talking about the same thing, I think that it is highly possible. In any case, it seems these verses support Universalism.

Todd

[Guest]

Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I find some similarities in these verses. In the first verse the creation is unwillingly subjected to futility. In the second verse all men are bound over to disobedience. These are similar thoughts. Also, in the first verse, all of creation is delivered from death into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. In the second verse God has mercy on all men.

While I can't say for certain that these two verses are talking about the same thing, I think that it is highly possible. In any case, it seems these verses support Universalism.


It sounds like God has a greater purpose in mind them simply punishing the disobedient. He made us either "spiritually neutral" or maybe "spiritually weak" and very succeptable to temptation for a reason which i guess is to learn to be overcomers.
So somewhere between indignation,wrath and mercy hopefully is chastisement.

[Guest]

In this thread I have attempted to present the idea that all punishment and wrath from God must happen before the resurrection. So that, once the [physical] resurrection happens, "God may be all in all" (1 Cor 15:28 ). In this way He will have received both the firstfruits (the just) and the later fruits (the unjust, once purged from unrighteousness).

For this view to be correct, it is necessary for John 5:24-29 to be understood to be referring to spiritual resurrection. I would like to explain this more fully. Here are the scriptures again for reference.

John 5:24-25
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

In the first two verses (v24-25) Jesus is speaking of a spiritual resurrection. He says that he who "hears my word and believes" will pass from death to life. In this case, passing from death to life is a spiritual resurrection. This happens everyday when someone hears God's word, believes and becomes a Christian. It is important to point out that hearing alone does not make one a Christian; one must also believe, as was said in verse 24. Also, in these first two verses, Jesus points out that he was referring to a time that "now is." He was referring to the time of His earthly ministry (before His death) while He spoke directly to the people (face to face). During this time only some of the spiritually dead heard his voice.

In the second two verses (v28-29) Jesus speaks of an "hour" that was coming in which all of the spiritually dead would hear His voice. I do not believe that Jesus is contrasting spiritual resurrection verses physical resurrection; He is contrasting the number of hearers - some versus all. The "hour" spoken of here is referring to the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out on all flesh.

Jesus then says that he who hears and believes will be awakened to eternal life (just as new Christians do today). Those who hear, but do not respond, will be awakened to punishment. This punishment begins in our lifetime (Rom 1:18-32, Rom 13:1-4) and will find its completion at Christ's return (before the physical resurrection). I believe this is also the proper understanding of the "sheep and the goats" (Matt 25:31-46) as well as Rev 20:11-15.

Todd

[Guest]

Jesus then says that he who hears and believes will be awakened to eternal life (just as new Christians do today). Those who hear, but do not respond, will be awakened to punishment. This punishment begins in our lifetime (Rom 1:18-32, Rom 13:1-4) and will find its completion at Christ's return (before the physical resurrection). I believe this is also the proper understanding of the "sheep and the goats" (Matt 25:31-46) as well as Rev 20:11-15.

I don't see anything about punishment in Rom 1 only about God's wrath which is anger but not in of itself punishment. And Rom 13 is talking about our relationship to governing authorities.
And Matt 25.41 says "depart from me you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I don't think everlasting means eternal but neither do i think it is a brief period of time and it's also a place prepared for the devil. Does this mean the devil is supposed to suffer in this life only?

[Guest]

Does this mean the devil is supposed to suffer in this life only?

Steve,

In this thread I allow for the possibility that the punishment may not be complete in our lifetime; however, I still believe it is completed before the resurrection. That way, all sin is dealth with prior to the last enemy (death) being destroyed.

This punishment begins in our lifetime (Rom 1:18-32, Rom 13:1-4) and will find its completion at Christ's return (before the physical resurrection).

Todd

[Guest]

Here is an interesting verse from Zephaniah. It begins by sounding a lot like a description of Judgment Day, but has an ending which seems to support Universal Salvation.

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them-- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

This verse may be describing an event that happened long ago in Old Testament times; but, the idea here is that the same figurative language is used, and the result is not what the traditionalist would expect.

Todd

[Guest]

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them-- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder.


Assemble the nations,wrath,consumed by fire and then purification. Call me crazy but it does sound like the lake of fire after the judgement day.
Good post, it says a lot in a few verses!
You know thinking back to Romans 8.19 it sounds like at the resurrection the sons of God are revealed but not the rest of humanity. Meaning at the resurrection only the believers are glorified (revealed) and the rest of creation had been waiting in anticipation.

[Guest]

1 John 2:1-2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This statement by John is consistent with Paul's Assertion in Rom 8:18-23 that the creation will share in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God." John tells us that Christ's atoning sacrifice covers not only the sins of the "sons of God" (the first fruits), but also, the sins of the rest of creation (the later fruits or "the whole world").

Todd

[Guest]

the ephesian jailer asked paul what he needed to do to be saved.

paul told him that he needed to "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

if the ephesian didnt really need to believe in the Lord jesus to be saved, and Paul knew this, doesnt it make paul a big fat liar?

TK