In favor of Universalism

[Guest]

Derek,

We still haven't addressed the subject of the first post in this thread. Paul said there is an order to the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:20-26
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Are there only two resurrections here?...or are there three? I think it is possible that three distinct resurrections are mentioned here: Christ's, the just, and the unjust. Verse 23 speaks of the first two, and v24-25 speak of the last (the unjust).

Here are a couple more verses that may hint that the just and unjust are not resurrected at the same time.

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Luke 14:14
And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

But to me, the passage that seems to support this idea most of all is the one I quoted in Romans 8. Here it is again.....

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Here, the creation, is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. I think this is referring to the resurrection because it concludes in v23 by saying "the redemption of our body." So, is this "revealing" speaking of the resurrection of the just? Could be. If so, then the creation is waiting its turn. Those who "have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (the just) are raised before the rest of creation (which would include the unjust).

The most amazing thing in this passage is that the creation ends up sharing in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God."

What is your take on this?

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

You wrote:

This is why I began to look at it the other way - that Jesus is still speaking of a spiritual resurrection, just as He was a few verses earlier.

If it is spiritual, then one must decide what "hour" Jesus was speaking of in which "all who were in the graves" would hear His voice. It seems to me that the Day of Pentecost is the most likely possibility. We are told of that Day that His Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh. Could this be the same thing as ALL hearing his voice? Also, we are told of the New Covenant in Jeremiah Chapter 31, that ALL would know him from the least to the greatest. Whether or not you agree with this, at least you can see my reasoning.

Your "spiritualization" of Jesus' statement about the resurrection seems rather odd given your concern about the "man in Timbuktu". How did the Day of Pentecost effect "all who were in the graves"? It is hard to see how you determine what is literal and figurative in the scriptures. It appears you shoe-horn everything into your paradigm, a practice we must all overcome in our search for truth.

[Guest]

Your "spiritualization" of Jesus' statement about the resurrection seems rather odd given your concern about the "man in Timbuktu". How did the Day of Pentecost effect "all who were in the graves"? It is hard to see how you determine what is literal and figurative in the scriptures. It appears you shoe-horn everything into your paradigm, a practice we must all overcome in our search for truth.

Homer,

Maybe so. I am trying to make everything fit. That's probably not possible.

I think the statement, "all who are in the graves," is referring to those who are spiritually dead. This was the context just a few verses earlier.

But let me ask you, Homer. Do you think that verses 24-25 are speaking of a spiritual resurrection?

Todd

[Guest]

How are they (the unjust) justified? By their own suffering or faith in Christ? There is only one way according to the bible. How are you reconciling God's justice with His mercy? If you say by punishing them at the "between" stage of judgement, then are they justifed by their own suffering? This is impossible biblically. It is by being justified that we become "heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7).

My thinking here is that one who is among the "unjust" is not justified (by definition)...that is why they are called unjust...and is why they must suffer God's wrath. The "just" are delivered from God's wrath. Homer said in his post that "justified" means "declared not guilty." So if you are "unjust" you are guilty and must be punished (or corrected). This is where God's mercy comes in; even though the unjust have no claim to "the glorious liberty of the sons of God," He is merciful, and allows them (after they have been corrected) to share in this.

Todd

The reason I am asking how the "unjust" are justified, is becasue they have to be justified in order to "share" in His mercy (regarding eternal life). It is by being justified that we can even have hope of eternal life. You don't have an explanation for how they are justified. To just say they are not, is to say they are not saved. While being punished temporarily may satisfy God's wrath, it does not justify someone according to the bible.

As far as I understand the system of thought, Universalists usually say that these people place their faith in Christ during or after this punishment. Why not just say that so I'll shut up?

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

It seems our disagreements over all of these interpretations fall on our particular understandings of this passage.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

In most of the passages you interpret differently from me, you seem to do so because you think my interpretations infringe upon the idea that "if death is the last thing destroyed, then why is anyone punished after that"?

We might as well just discuss that, because all of the other problems (in this thread) will more or less be interpreted in light of our understandings of this verse.

I am going to look into it a bit more and get back to you.

God bless,

[Guest]

As far as I understand the system of thought, Universalists usually say that these people place their faith in Christ during or after this punishment. Why not just say that so I'll shut up?

Derek,

Okay. Since I do believe that "every knee shall bow" includes all of mankind in a sincere submission to Christ, I'll give the answer you suggested. Now we can move on...

Todd

[Guest]

In most of the passages you interpret differently from me, you seem to do so because you think my interpretations infringe upon the idea that "if death is the last thing destroyed, then why is anyone punished after that"?

Hi, I apologize if this was dismissed already but in Rev 20 death and hades go in the LOF first and then anyone not found in the book of life. Therefore does'nt this most likely rule out annhilation and also if the LOF is for chastisement as oppossed to punishment would that help? Does'nt God chastise those he loves?

[Guest]

...if the LOF is for chastisement as oppossed to punishment would that help? Does'nt God chastise those he loves?

Steve,

I think you are referring to this verse....

Heb 12:7
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

While your suggestion is a possible answer to my issue, I am not certain that God's chastening is what Paul was referring to in the following passage....

Rom 2:8-9
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

My suggestion, in this thread, is that the "indignation and wrath" spoken of here by Paul, occurs before the resurrection of the unjust. In this way, they have been completely purged of all unrighteousness prior to sharing in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God" (Rom 8:21).

Todd

[Guest]

Another point that I would suggest is the idea of firstfruits. In the Romans 8 passage Paul seems to equate the "sons of God" (v19) with "those of us who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (v23). I believe he is referring to "the just" - those who have put their faith in Christ during their lifetime. Here are two more verses which seem to agree with this idea....

James 1:18
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Rev 14:4
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

So then, if Christians are the "firstfruits," doesn't it make sense then that the rest of creation per Romans 8:18-23, would be the later fruits? This also lends itself to the idea of the order of the resurrection; namely, the firstfruits (the just) are raised before the later fruits (the unjust).

Todd

[Guest]

My suggestion, in this thread, is that the "indignation and wrath" spoken of here by Paul, occurs before the resurrection of the unjust. In this way, they have been completely purged of all unrighteousness prior to sharing in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God" (Rom 8:21).

Good point Todd, but perhaps there is some hyperbole in these words. Because God does love everyone and Hebrews says that "He chastises those whom he loves" therefore between indignation,wrath and chastisement we have a process that leads to being conformed into the image of Christ.