Derek wrote:
The passage also says that they will suffer "everlasting destruction from His presence", but you think that they will have everlasting life in His presence (when they die). That's the exact opposite of all that "everlasting destruction from His presence" could mean, taken as figurative or literal.
The passage does not say "away from" His presence. I think it could be interpreted to mean "as a result of" His presence. In other words, the Lord will bring his punishment upon them. The words "everlasting destruction" could be taken figuratively to mean "severe punishment."
-Strongs
apo'
A primary particle; “off”, that is,
away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually
denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
Thayer's Definition:
1) of
separation
1a) of local
separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of
departing, of fleeing, ...
1b) of
separation of a part from the whole
1b1) where of a whole some part is taken
1c) of any kind of
separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a
state of separation, that is of distance
1d1) physical, of distance of place
1d2) temporal, of distance of time
NASB Concordance:
apo; a prep. and a prim. particle; from,
away from:
(ESV) They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,
away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
(NASB) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction,
away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Many versions have "from" but I think the context makes these translations
very likely (not that it isn't clear in the KJV). I am sure all of these people are biased by their eternal torment presuppositions or something, but either way the greek is clear, I think.
The words "everlasting destruction" could be taken figuratively to mean "severe punishment."
Do you think that all non Christians are being punished severly?
I do believe there is a universal event still yet in the future. This event is the second coming of Christ. What will happen on that Day?
Well... I think that Jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed...among other things.
We do know one thing for sure - "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). This means that, immeditately prior to the resurrection, Christ will have no more enemies except death itself.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Do you believe that when death is destroyed here in the lake of fire, that "anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" as well? By the way I don't take the fire literally, but I do take the concept of being destroyed in some way literally.
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Annihilationism does not conflict with this at all.
Couldn't Paul be saying, "just as those who are physically dead are freed from sin, those also who are dead in Christ through Baptism are freed also?" I think this is a possible interpretation. But let's pursue this thought a little further.....
No. I don't think that is what Paul is saying at all, as the context shows. He is speaking of death "in Christ" and "to sin". This is important, because Christ was ressurected. That is why being dieing "in Him" is beneficial.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
What motivates people to sin? John said that it is, "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16). So, when we die, aren't these sin motivators destroyed? And if, in our lifetime, God has seen to it that we reaped what we sowed and has punished us appropriately when we sinned, that someone could be freed from sin at death? I think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.
I (as most others would) take flesh to be more than our physical bodies. For instance, my natural desire to eat is not bad, it is the perversion of it by sin that makes me want to overeat.
The "flesh" is dealt with by faith in what Christ did on the cross. Through the cross we have power to walk according to the Spirit instead of according to the flesh.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Paul didn't literally die on the cross, of course, but this is the death spoken of in the bible that "frees from sin". A death "like His".
think it is not totally unreasonable to consider it this way.
I respectfully disagree.
God bless,
