Hell, eternal punishment... and literal flames?

[Guest]

i might be wrong but i dont think Bill Gates is doing a lot of suffering, nor are likely 90% of the "unsaved" out there. they just live ther normal lives, have their normal problems, sin their normal sins, etc. but so do Christians. except that Chrisitans have an eternal hope.

what in the world am i missing here?

TK

TK,

This is a fair question. Here is my answer.

You mention Bill Gates. I don't know much about him personally except that I know he has given a lot of money to help a lot of people. His work in the computer field has helped the whole world become more productive. Just because someone has money doesn't make them a bad person.

Actually, Salvation and Eternal Life are all about having peace with God. It has nothing to do with social standing, wealth, intelligence, or physical attractiveness. The poorest person can have peace with God as well as someone like Bill Gates. The lowest person in a corporation can have peace with God as well as the CEO. It has nothing to do with your circumstance. But it does have everything to do with obeying the Law of Christ, which is to Love your neighbor as yourself. It has everything to do with being totally honest and upright in all your dealings with everyone. It is all about helping people and being kind. This is what the Bible means when it says we shall be judged by our works. If we ignor our neighbor's troubles when we are in a position to help, we will be punished by God through the action of our conscience and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The very rich and famous can live an absolutely miserable life if it is filled with selfishness and self-indulgence. This is what Hell is describing - a lifetime of misery of the soul of one who is self-seeking. Salvation through Christ is to deliver us from this kind of misery.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 10:10
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Christ deals with us individually regarding our sin. His punishments have a purpose - they are designed to bring about repentance so that we may enjoy his blessings of peace, joy, and love.

Christ's death on the cross was meant to deal with mankind as a whole. He purchased reconciliation for the whole of mankind through his sacrifice. This is the Grace of God, it applies to everyone without merit.

Rom 11:15
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

2 Cor 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Todd

[Guest]

the only reason i mentioned bill gates is because he is not a christian, to my understanding, and he certainly doesnt seem to be experiencing "hell on earth."

are you saying that a non-christian "good person" reaps the same benefits as a "saved" good person? you seem to suggest that a "good person" who is not saved will not experience any hell on earth. then why in heaven's name did Jesus have to die on the cross?

i am really having a hard time understanding your point of view. no offense!

TK

[Guest]

Not sure if all of you have listened to this already, but Steve had a couple of interesting lectures that deal with some of these issues. 'Three views of hell 1&2'

http://www.digitalministries.us/page10.html

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

I believe that God does punish the sinner, but all his punishments happen during our lifetime.

I'm wondering what you think of the punishment God has inflicted on poor old Hugh Hefner?

[Guest]

the only reason i mentioned bill gates is because he is not a christian, to my understanding, and he certainly doesnt seem to be experiencing "hell on earth."

are you saying that a non-christian "good person" reaps the same benefits as a "saved" good person? you seem to suggest that a "good person" who is not saved will not experience any hell on earth. then why in heaven's name did Jesus have to die on the cross?

i am really having a hard time understanding your point of view. no offense!

TK

Salvation is a two-part issue. Part One deals with mankind as a whole. Had Christ not died and rose again there would be no hope for anyone - there would be no future resurrection and no glorification. Part two is that Christ deals with us individually regarding our lives on this earth. Good works are rewarded with His spiritual blessings (peace, joy, and love), whereas selfishness, rudeness, cruelty, etc are punished in our very souls in that we are inwardly miserable through the action of our conscience and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

My position is explained much more fully in this thread if you are interested. Click the link below.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1111

Todd

[Guest]

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Whatever the original wording is for both the bolded words, they are the same. So if you choose to translate it into the english as age abiding, then you have the following:

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into age-abiding punishment: but the righteous into life age-abiding.

So if this is true, then you have a serious problem on your hands, because if you can at some point escape the age abiding punishment in the hereafter, then you also could at some point escape the age-abiding life as well.

Soaring Eagle, I congratulate you. You have successfully replicated Augustine's argument from way back in the early fifth century! He was the one who introduced the concept of eternal punishment into the catholic church of his day. Prior to him, Christians believed in the historic, apostolic teaching that Gehenna is a place of correction. Origen and others had made a strong case for the judgments of God in Gehenna being means of correction. So to accomodate both teachings in the church, catholics invented purgatory. They began to believe in both a place of correction, and a place of eternal torment.

I agree that the two phrases are of parallel construction. Thus, either the word "aionios" means "eternal" in both places, or means something else in both places. But "eternal correction" is impossible ("correction" is the meaning of the Greek word "kolasis"). For how can a person be corrected eternally? If he is successfully corrected, then the correction has come to an end.

Personally, I don't think "aionios" means "age-abiding." Rather it means "going from age to age", and so with the Hebrew equivalent. That which goes from age to age is a long process. This process could continue forever, or it could come to an end. There is no meaning inherent in the word itself by which one could determine which it is. With that in mind, there is no problem with asserting that the goats undergo correction which goes from age to age, and the sheep go into life which goes from age to age.

So the idea that the adjectival form of "age" means "eternal" and the expression "into the age" means "for ever" seems to have no validity.

There is an interesting example in the OT in which the phrase is translated as "for ever" where it makes no sense to do so:

Isaiah 32:1-16
For the palace will be forsaken, the populous city deserted; the hill and the watchtower will become dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest. Then justice will dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness abide in the fruitful field.

So.... in like manner, perhaps the goats shall go into eternal correction until they are corrected.

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

I believe that God does punish the sinner, but all his punishments happen during our lifetime.

I'm wondering what you think of the punishment God has inflicted on poor old Hugh Hefner?

I believe that God deals with everyone according to their works. Good works will be rewarded and evil will be punished....and there is no respect of persons.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,
I read most of you earlier thread on this subject, and I wanted to ask you about Blaspheme agianst the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:28
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But Blashemies of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Are there any who have commited this sin? And if so are the eternally punished in your view, or are they annialated(sp?)?

Robin

[Guest]

Todd,
I read most of you earlier thread on this subject, and I wanted to ask you about Blaspheme agianst the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:28
I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But Blashemies of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Are there any who have commited this sin? And if so are the eternally punished in your view, or are they annialated(sp?)?

Robin

Robin,

This is a good question. I am not sure what constitutes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. However, "eternal" punishment may possibly mean throughout your lifetime. I cannot say for certain.

Todd

[Guest]

So.... in like manner, perhaps the goats shall go into eternal correction until they are corrected.

With that kind of thinking we can say that, in like manner, perhaps the sheep that go into age-abiding (or eternal) life could become a goat during eternity and go into the goat category. This is a serious problem.