A 4th Alternative View of Hell

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:05 pm

Jesusfollower wrote:FOF, you may want to check this out and see a thorough study of the subject.
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... le&sid=297

Does the Lord judge now or at the Judgment?

JF,

I looked at this article. It is just more "traditional view" stuff. The article started off with this quote...

It is commonly believed that God judges people “today” and that He does so by causing good things to happen to “good” people and bad things to happen to “bad” people.

This has nothing to do with what I am trying to say here. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. "Bad things" happen to everyone. What I am attempting to point out is that our souls can find rest (peace, joy and love) when we are followers of the Spirit of Christ. The souls of those who are selfish, and followers of fleshly desires will find nothing but bitterness and anguish. Jesus, came to show us the way to peace and joy...He came to save us from the anguish that is caused by selfishness.

Todd

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:01 pm

Paidion wrote:
How does the "fourth view of hell" address the after life?
Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Christ has reconciled the world unto himself (2 Cor 5:19) and in this way is the Savior of the world.

John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

All will be resurrected with a new incorruptible body.

FofF, you seem to be saying that, in the afterlife, everyone will be in the same boat, since Jesus is "the Savior of the world."

This is not the case, according to our Lord, and according to Paul.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said:

Matthew 25:46 And they[the goats]will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age."

Romans 2:6-10 For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give life that goes from age to age, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

The results that go "from age to age" apparently extend well beyond this present life!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Math 5:38-42
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Todd, I understand what you are saying but this verse and other beautitude verses are how Christ expects the christian to act because it's living out "loving your neighbor like yourself."
But the bible says that for God "vengence is mine" because God is the final judge of everyone therefore the "eye for eye" standard of justice God may reserve for himself because he said it is morally correct in the OT and he reserves the right to decide the nature of ultimate repentence.

The truth is we really don't know IMO so you could be right or as Paidion has suggested perhaps some people's repentence may be for millions of years.
And it's possible that some people have heard enough of the gospel and won't have another opportunity, the bible does'nt let us figure everything out, some things are just the secrets only God knows.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:32 pm

Paidion wrote:FofF, you seem to be saying that, in the afterlife, everyone will be in the same boat, since Jesus is "the Savior of the world."

This is not the case, according to our Lord, and according to Paul.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said:

Matthew 25:46 And they[the goats]will go away into correction that goes from age to age, but the righteous into life that goes from age to age."

Romans 2:6-10 For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give life that goes from age to age, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

The results that go "from age to age" apparently extend well beyond this present life!

Paidion,

I am glad you brought up the sheep and the goats because it supports "the 4th view" very well. I will explain.

First, Christ began his judgment at the Day of Pentecost and it continues unto this day. The separating of the sheep and the goats is a picture of what happens in this judgment - it happens every day. There are two groups of people. The first group is the goats. These people are selfish because they have opportunity to help others and bear their burdens but, because they are self-seeking, they do not. Therefore they are punished by God - not after they are dead, but while they are still living. What is their punishment?... It is guilt and shame! This punishment will not abate as long as these people continue in their selfishness. Their punishment will continue right up until their death (unless they repent and find their salvation in Christ).

The second group is different. They, by nature know the law of Christ, that we should love one another as ourselves and that we should bear one another's burdens. These people help others and are rewarded by the Holy Spirit with the satisfaction one gets from helping others. They feel peaceful inside and joyful and their souls find rest. This is eternal life. Eternal life does not refer to the length of time one has life but to the quality of that life. Eternal life is one that has peace with God.

Todd

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:28 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Math 5:38-42
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Todd, I understand what you are saying but this verse and other beautitude verses are how Christ expects the christian to act because it's living out "loving your neighbor like yourself."
But the bible says that for God "vengence is mine" because God is the final judge of everyone therefore the "eye for eye" standard of justice God may reserve for himself because he said it is morally correct in the OT and he reserves the right to decide the nature of ultimate repentence.

The truth is we really don't know IMO so you could be right or as Paidion has suggested perhaps some people's repentence may be for millions of years.
And it's possible that some people have heard enough of the gospel and won't have another opportunity, the bible does'nt let us figure everything out, some things are just the secrets only God knows.

Steve,

So you are saying that God expects us to act one way but he can do otherwise? You believe that God says, "do what I say, not what I do?" I don't think He is like that. I believe Christ came to show us God's true nature.

Yes, he does say, "vengence is mine," but I believe he executes all punishments while we live. Once the body is dead there is no more punishment - the body sleeps until the resurrection.

Todd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:54 pm

So you are saying that God expects us to act one way but he can do otherwise? You believe that God says, "do what I say, not what I do?" I don't think He is like that. I believe Christ came to show us God's true nature.

Yes, he does say, "vengence is mine," but I believe he executes all punishments while we live. Once the body is dead there is no more punishment - the body sleeps until the resurrection.

Todd, We can't do everything God does because only he ultimately judges sin. I agree the body of the unbeliever sleeps until the resurrection but at that event there are two separate resurrections "one to life" and "one to judgement." John 5.28-9
Now if you are a universalist how do you reconcile a resurrection to judgement which is clearly differentiated from the resurrection to life with the belief that everyone makes it into heaven immediately after the resurrection?

Post by **_Homer** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:24 pm

Todd,

You said:

"Those who are overcome by sin 'reap what they sow' (Gal 6:7-8 ). God's wrath is poured out on them in four ways - (1) The conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ), (2) the torment of their own conscience (Rom 2:15), (3) the adminstration of the governing authorities (Rom 13:1-4), (4) the destructive nature of sin itself (Rom 1:18-32). This is hell, this is the punishment."

-------------------------

(1) The Holy Spirit can be "quenched" and have no effect.

(2) The conscience can become seared over as sin is persisted in. We quickly learn to rationalize many things. I recall the story of a crooked politician who was asked on his death bed if he had any regrets for the life he had lived. After a pause he replied "I can't think of a thing".

(3) Many terrible sins are not illegal, thus the authorities will do nothing.

(4) Many sinful practices are pleasurable and/or appeal to pride, etc.

Do you think Hugh Heffner's life has been a living hell? Some pouring out of wrath! If this is what hell is like there will be a lot of takers.

Post by **_TK** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:49 pm

Homer, i agree with you 100%. this 4th view idea puts entirely too much stock in the "torture of conscience." i know many unsaved people who unfortunately have no tortured conscience. perhaps if they did, they would come to Christ.

In the parable of lazarus and the rich man, jesus suggested quite vividly that hell was a place someone goes after they die and the place is a place of torment.

granted, i have not read Paidion's view of hell (perhaps someone can tell me where i can find those threads). but to suggest that the unsaved experience hell on earth, and that's all there is, seems so contrary to scripture that i can't even get started. call me old-fashioned.

TK

Post by **_Homer** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:23 pm

TK,

Under "Miscellaneous Theological Topics", scroll to the bottom, click page 2, scroll down to "Alternative Views of Hell". You will find some 258 post to read. Have fun!

Post by **_MLH** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:21 am

I hope the 7th day adventists are correct in their teaching on "hell"..
they dont believe in a punishment that lasts forever otherwise the wicked have eternal life.