A 4th Alternative View of Hell

[Guest]

1 Corinthians 15:22-27 (New International Version)

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[a] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

NOW WHAT DOES THAT SAY?
It says that all are dead until Christ comes, it is also clear that God is the Father, again, as in the many passages and that everything was put under Christ by the Father who is God. And the last enemy, death is an enemy always, nobody is alive partying with Jesus, after they die. It tells when all dominion and authority will be put under his feet, after he reigns for a thousand years. Ya, you are right though you do have to put some other stuff together to get that part

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

I don't take offense, but obviously I don't think it is "outrageous".

I didn't expect you to agree with me! and remember, i havent called it outrageous YET. and i recognize that outrageousness is in the eye of the beholder.

may i ask, on a more personal note, what you "religious" background is-- denominationally or otherwise? i am curious as to what went into formulating your view.

also-- you have presented a 4th alternative of hell-- is this something you actually believe? i dont think you have explicitly stated as much but it is implied, i suppose.

thx, TK

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

I don't take offense, but obviously I don't think it is "outrageous".

I didn't expect you to agree with me! and remember, i havent called it outrageous YET. and i recognize that outrageousness is in the eye of the beholder.

may i ask, on a more personal note, what you "religious" background is-- denominationally or otherwise? i am curious as to what went into formulating your view.

also-- you have presented a 4th alternative of hell-- is this something you actually believe? i dont think you have explicitly stated as much but it is implied, i suppose.

thx, TK

TK,

I started Baptist, then Church of Christ, mostly. But I have also attended some Bible Churches. The study which lead to this view came when I really got interested in Christian Universalism because they have the same problems with the Traditional View that I do. I just think that the "4th view" has better answers to those issues.

Do I believe it? Yes, for the most part, but some of the issues are still not totally worked out yet for me. I will keep working on it.

Todd

[Guest]

1 Cor 15:51-57
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As far as I know, that's all the information we have about the resurrection. Notice that in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4, which are the most complete descriptions of the resurrection, there is no mention of a judgment - because there is not one.

Todd, In verse 53 Paul speaks of immortality which means he is only talking about those "in Christ" here and in 1 Thes 4 and that's why there is no mention of judgement because the subject is only about the resurrection of believers.

[Guest]

Todd, " I tell you the truth , a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live." John 5.25
OK we agree that this refers back to 5.24 and addresses those who are dead in sin.

Then Jesus goes on to say AFTER he had already spoken about the spiritually dead in John 5.24-25.
"Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come out" 5.28

If this refers to the graveyard of sin Jesus seems to be mistaken because not all will come out from the graveyard of sin. However at his second coming all will come out of the graves (sleep of death) as Rev 20 confirms.
Rev 20 reconciles with John 5 indicating there are two resurrections ,first the spiritual meaning being born again "This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection , the second death has no power over them." 20.6
The point of this is that there are two resurrections and in both John 5 and Rev 20 , John the author of both portrays judgement of unbelievers at the second resurrection.
There are vast discrepencies in this life that occur between people's experiences in this brief life that allow for an equal testing of every person to meet God's perfect standard of justice and mercy.

[Guest]

Todd, In verse 53 Paul speaks of immortality which means he is only talking about those "in Christ" here and in 1 Thes 4 and that's why there is no mention of judgement because the subject is only about the resurrection of believers.

Steve,

If all of mankind is to appear before the Judgment to be divided between hell and heaven, don't you think it is a bit strange that there is no mention of it in these passages? It gets totally omitted. It is my belief that it is omitted because it doesn't happen. It makes much more sense - as I have already explained - that the judgment occurs during our lifetime.

Also, every passage about the judgment says that we are judged "according to our works." But those who hold to the traditional view say we are saved by grace, not by works. They get around this point by saying that the works show that we have faith and that is what really saves us. But that is a work-around, it is not what it says. The 4th view works through these issues and applies it as it is written.

Todd

[Guest]

Also, every passage about the judgment says that we are judged "according to our works." But those who hold to the traditional view say we are saved by grace, not by works. They get around this point by saying that the works show that we have faith and that is what really saves us. But that is a work-around, it is not what it says. The 4th view works through these issues and applies it as it is written.


Todd, Paul was writing to brethren who were fellow believers and probably answering their questions about their resurrection, that's why he did'nt address anything about unbelievers.

There are two separate judgements "according to our works" the believer gets judged for rewards not salvation and the unbeliever gets judged for condemnation. Now as you know i don't believe condemnation necessarily means punishment but is related to some sort of repentence and eventual restitution, hopefully.

[Guest]

Todd, " I tell you the truth , a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live." John 5.25
OK we agree that this refers back to 5.24 and addresses those who are dead in sin.

Then Jesus goes on to say AFTER he had already spoken about the spiritually dead in John 5.24-25.
"Do not be amazed at this for a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come out" 5.28

If this refers to the graveyard of sin Jesus seems to be mistaken because not all will come out from the graveyard of sin. However at his second coming all will come out of the graves (sleep of death) as Rev 20 confirms.
Rev 20 reconciles with John 5 indicating there are two resurrections ,first the spiritual meaning being born again "This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection , the second death has no power over them." 20.6
The point of this is that there are two resurrections and in both John 5 and Rev 20 , John the author of both portrays judgement of unbelievers at the second resurrection.
There are vast discrepencies in this life that occur between people's experiences in this brief life that allow for an equal testing of every person to meet God's perfect standard of justice and mercy.

Steve,

I appreciate that you are addessing my points with reasonable arguments. I will explain further my understanding of why Jesus said it this way.

When Jesus was on earth before his crucifiction (during his earthly ministry) he went about teaching the Kingdom of God to the children of Israel. Many heard the truth and believed. During this time the Holy Spirit had not yet come. The only way they could hear the truth was when they heard Jesus speak himself. This is what is being described in John 5:24-25.

John 5:24-25
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Jesus then spoke of an "hour" that was coming in which "all" would hear his voice. The prophet Joel tells us that on the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit would be poured out on "all flesh." Therefore, on that Day everyone heard the voice of the Son of God through his Spirit.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Resurrections can be spiritual or physical, just as death can be spiritual or physical. Since the subject was spiritual death it makes sense to assume the resurrections in verse 29 are also spiritual. The New Testament has examples of spiritual resurrection look at this verse.

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses

Todd