A 4th Alternative View of Hell

[Guest]

Hi todd--

please excuse me for being so dense-- but your idea is so novel to me that i am having a hard time understanding it. so i might have to ask you some simple questions so that i understand exactly what you believe. so, from your perspective:

1) what happens to people that die w/o ever having accepted Christ as their Savior? anything?

2) does your view hold that someone like Hitler will DEFINITELY be punished more during their life on earth than just your average non-Christian-- or just that they MIGHT be?

3) what about sincere (but misguided) muslims who blow other people up because they sincerely believe this is their righteous mission... are they being punished during their lives on earth?

4) what about some of my friends-- good family guys, live quiet lives, go to RC mass on sunday, etc but havent accepted Christ. are they being punished right now? how? they seem happy and content to me. in fact i know they are.

Thx for your answers-- i may have more ??s later.

TK

[Guest]

Todd, You seem to be reading an awful lot into a few verses like Matt 3.10 "the ax is already at the root of the tree and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Firstly there is no time frame here and "the root" is probably referring to Israel and "the fire" c/b either 70AD or simply judgement in general.
But there are verses in the bible like "God sends the rain and the sunshine on the righteous and the wicked" or others which lament why the wicked prosper while the righteous seem to suffer in this life. These seem to indicate that many wicked are not tormented during this life.

Yes there is a spiritual regeneration and spiritual death during this life without a doubt but is there not a second coming of Christ and is he not coming in judgement?
The description of the great white throne judgement describes a universal event not individual judgements during each persons lifetime.
"Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And i saw the dead great and small standing before the throne." Rev 20.5

[Guest]

Hi TK,

You have asked some good questions. I will give you my best answer and explanation. You say my "idea" is novel....It is certainly not a widely held view but I have read others who also believe that hell is God's punishment during our lifetime.

1) what happens to people that die w/o ever having accepted Christ as their Savior? anything?

Christ came that we might have abundant life. Someone who dies without knowing Christ misses out on that during their lifetime. However, if Christ had not died for our sins, and rose again, there would be no resurrection of the dead....there would be no hope of a bodily resurrection for anyone. But since Christ is the Savior of the world all will be resurrected someday - both the just and the unjust - and receive an incorruptible body.

2) does your view hold that someone like Hitler will DEFINITELY be punished more during their life on earth than just your average non-Christian-- or just that they MIGHT be?

I believe that God punishes as He sees fit; however, all punishment is meant to encourage repentance.

3) what about sincere (but misguided) muslims who blow other people up because they sincerely believe this is their righteous mission... are they being punished during their lives on earth?

Through the Holy Spirit God has placed in the heart of each person the knowledge of the Law of Christ; namely, that we should love our neighbor as ourself. This was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jer 31.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So when these Muslims (or anyone else) kill innocent unarmed people they are accused by their own conscience or their sin. Paul spoke of this in Romans chapter 2.

Rom 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

4) what about some of my friends-- good family guys, live quiet lives, go to RC mass on sunday, etc but havent accepted Christ. are they being punished right now? how? they seem happy and content to me. in fact i know they are.

The Bible is consistent on this. God rewards us according to our works. If your friends are truly happy and content then they have been blessed by God.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd, You seem to be reading an awful lot into a few verses like Matt 3.10 "the ax is already at the root of the tree and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Firstly there is no time frame here and "the root" is probably referring to Israel and "the fire" c/b either 70AD or simply judgement in general.
But there are verses in the bible like "God sends the rain and the sunshine on the righteous and the wicked" or others which lament why the wicked prosper while the righteous seem to suffer in this life. These seem to indicate that many wicked are not tormented during this life.

Yes there is a spiritual regeneration and spiritual death during this life without a doubt but is there not a second coming of Christ and is he not coming in judgement?
The description of the great white throne judgement describes a universal event not individual judgements during each persons lifetime.
"Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And i saw the dead great and small standing before the throne." Rev 20.5

Steve,

I acknowledge that there is more than one way to look at these verses. That is why there are so many views. Each one has some merit and a reasonable person can understand how each view might be harmonized with scripture. For me, however, the 4th view makes the most sense. Doesn't it make more sense for the Father to punish his child while there is still time to correct the offense? If the punishment doesn't happen until after the resurrection it is pointless because it is too late to do anything about it.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

But since Christ is the Savior of the world all will be resurrected someday - both the just and the unjust - and receive an incorruptible body.

are you saying that those who don't put their faith in Christ, while alive, will have the same post-resurrection "benefits" i.e. the same experience as those who do?

if this position is true, then the whole idea of Christianity is meaningless nonsense. i mean, if we are all going to have eternal resurrection bodies and a "heavenly" existence, regardless of our faith or lack thereof, then who cares about a few measly years on earth? might as well eat, drink and be merry. nobody in their right mind would take up their cross and bear it if they can "party like it's 1999" and look forward to eternal bliss anyways.--

do you understand where i am coming from?

TK

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

Through the Holy Spirit God has placed in the heart of each person the knowledge of the Law of Christ; namely, that we should love our neighbor as ourself. This was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jer 31.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

You say the prophesy in Jeremiah applies to "each person" yet the scripture clearly says the covenant will be with "the house of Israel" which could mean literal Israel or figuratively the Church. It is applicable to none else.

And you said:

Doesn't it make more sense for the Father to punish his child while there is still time to correct the offense? If the punishment doesn't happen until after the resurrection it is pointless because it is too late to do anything about it.

But this is only true if justice has no place in God's economy which is an unsupported assumption.

[Guest]

If there is no eternal seperation/punishment from God in the after life then what about treasures in heaven, inpassable gulf between heaven and hell? Yes there is real world consequences for sin but not everyone who fornicates gets diseases, feels dirty, etc. not everyone who lies cares one bit about the consequences of thier sin as long as they get what they want, etc.

Jim

[Guest]

Doesn't it make more sense for the Father to punish his child while there is still time to correct the offense? If the punishment doesn't happen until after the resurrection it is pointless because it is too late to do anything about it.

Why is it to late?

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

But since Christ is the Savior of the world all will be resurrected someday - both the just and the unjust - and receive an incorruptible body.

are you saying that those who don't put their faith in Christ, while alive, will have the same post-resurrection "benefits" i.e. the same experience as those who do?

if this position is true, then the whole idea of Christianity is meaningless nonsense. i mean, if we are all going to have eternal resurrection bodies and a "heavenly" existence, regardless of our faith or lack thereof, then who cares about a few measly years on earth? might as well eat, drink and be merry. nobody in their right mind would take up their cross and bear it if they can "party like it's 1999" and look forward to eternal bliss anyways.--

do you understand where i am coming from?

TK

2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Christ has reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. Having done this he secured the resurrection of the world - both the just and the unjust. This is the grace of God - that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

However, as we live this life, we have two paths. One leads to a life full of God's spiritual blessings, which are the fruits of the spirit - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. This is eternal life. The other path is self-seeking and leads to a life which perishes in carnal-mindedness.

Gal 5:19-20
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;...."

To "eat, drink, and be merry" is to perish.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

Through the Holy Spirit God has placed in the heart of each person the knowledge of the Law of Christ; namely, that we should love our neighbor as ourself. This was prophesied by Jeremiah in Jer 31.

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

You say the prophesy in Jeremiah applies to "each person" yet the scripture clearly says the covenant will be with "the house of Israel" which could mean literal Israel or figuratively the Church. It is applicable to none else.

Homer,

You may be right on this point.

Todd