A 4th Alternative View of Hell

[mgarrett]

Todd, We can't do everything God does because only he ultimately judges sin. I agree the body of the unbeliever sleeps until the resurrection but at that event there are two separate resurrections "one to life" and "one to judgement." John 5.28-9
Now if you are a universalist how do you reconcile a resurrection to judgement which is clearly differentiated from the resurrection to life with the belief that everyone makes it into heaven immediately after the resurrection?

Steve,

Thank you for bringing up this passage in John chapter 5. Like the "sheep and the goats" it also supports "the 4th view." I will explain.

In the second principal of the 4th view I said that there are two kinds of death - physical death and the death of the soul. I also said that verses that talk about the dead being judged are referring to those who are dead spiritually not physically. That is what we have in John chapter 5. Let's look at the context. Just a few verses earlier it said,

John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Here we have Jesus saying that a person who hears the truth and believes has passed from death to life. He is not talking about someone who is physically dead being raised.....He was talking about someone who was dead spiritually. This is the context of this passage.

You quoted John 5:28-29 so let's look at that.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those in the graves here have been in the graveyard of sin - they are not physically dead. Paul said,

Rom 8:5-8 NKJV
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who are carnally minded are dead Paul says. But let's get back to John 5:28-29.

Jesus said, "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice". The hour Jesus spoke of happened on the Day of Pentecost. Let's look at what was prophesied about that day.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;....

On the Day of Pentecost God's Spirit was poured out upon ALL flesh. ALL who were carnally minded (and therefore spiritually dead) heard his voice that Day (through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, John 16:8 ).....and the judgment began, just as we read in the sheep and the goats, those whose deeds are good receive life; those whose deeds are self-seeking and carnal receive condemnation (punishment) from God. This is happening every day. This punishment will continue unabated as long as there is no repentance.

Todd

[mgarrett]

Todd,

You said:

"Those who are overcome by sin 'reap what they sow' (Gal 6:7-8 ). God's wrath is poured out on them in four ways - (1) The conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ), (2) the torment of their own conscience (Rom 2:15), (3) the adminstration of the governing authorities (Rom 13:1-4), (4) the destructive nature of sin itself (Rom 1:18-32). This is hell, this is the punishment."

-------------------------

(1) The Holy Spirit can be "quenched" and have no effect.

(2) The conscience can become seared over as sin is persisted in. We quickly learn to rationalize many things. I recall the story of a crooked politician who was asked on his death bed if he had any regrets for the life he had lived. After a pause he replied "I can't think of a thing".

(3) Many terrible sins are not illegal, thus the authorities will do nothing.

(4) Many sinful practices are pleasurable and/or appeal to pride, etc.

Do you think Hugh Heffner's life has been a living hell? Some pouring out of wrath! If this is what hell is like there will be a lot of takers.

Homer,

As always you are very clear thinking and understand what is being said. I agree with your first three points, but I would like to comment on the fourth. Let's look again at what Paul said,

Rom 8:5-8 NKJV
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Let's focus on the positive side of what Paul said here. He said, "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This explains what God's desire is for us. He wants us to enjoy "life and peace" that comes from Him during our lifetime. He does not want us to be encumbered with sin and spiritual death. While it may seem "pleasurable," the soul is vexed and there is no satisfaction or true happiness in a life filled with carnal things and selfishness. This is what John 3:16 is all about.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Jesus was sent so that we could have a life that is full of his blessings; peace, joy, patience, kindness, love, etc. - not that we should perish in carnal mindedness.

So yes, (1) the Spirit can be "quenched", (2) our conscience can be "seared over," (3) many sins are not illegal, BUT when this happens is when what Paul described in Romans 1:18-32 applies. I have already commented on that. Here is the quote.....

Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Notice that Paul says this is happening now. He goes on to say that God, in the execution of this wrath, he...

"gave them up to uncleanness...." (v.24)

"gave them up to vile passions..." (v.26)

"gave them over to a debased mind..." (v.28 )

So we can see that God's wrath is poured out during our lifetime for those who sin.

Todd

[Guest]

Homer said: Under "Miscellaneous Theological Topics", scroll to the bottom, click page 2, scroll down to "Alternative Views of Hell". You will find some 258 post to read. Have fun!

thanks homer-- nothing like a little light reading on a sunday afternoon.

______________

Todd--

the verses you quoted from Romans 1 indeed tell us that God pours out his wrath on the wicked in that He:

"gave them up to uncleanness...." (v.24)

"gave them up to vile passions..." (v.26)

"gave them over to a debased mind..." (v.28 )

however, this is very different from stating that this is a "punishment." it may be, in the very broadest objective sense (because they are essentially blinded to the truth) but it does not follow that it is punishment that is experienced subjectively by the wicked person. in other words, the wicked may be unclean, have vile passions, and have a debased mind, but have a grand old time practicing all three. look at Hollywood- look at the night clubs in Miami beach- look in our own neighborhoods!

now, it is possible that in the quiet of the night when they are alone with their thoughts that they are being tortured by their conscience? i would say only occasionally.

i guess what i am trying to say is that it really isnt punishment unless you know you are being punished.

When Jesus made this statement in Mt 18:8: And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire what was He talking about, from your perspective? how do you correlate "eternal fire" with your view?

thx for your input,

TK

[Guest]

fof, the article I posted a link to has everything to do with what you are saying, the Judgment comes on the Lords Day scripture says, it is mans day in this age. There are no judgments until that time.

[mgarrett]

When Jesus made this statement in Mt 18:8: And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire what was He talking about, from your perspective? how do you correlate "eternal fire" with your view?

thx for your input,

TK

TK,

First off let me say that I do not believe God to be as vindictive as the "traditional view" makes Him out to be. For someone to suffer an eternity in punishment is out of balance with justice. Regarding the New Covenant God said, "for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more." God's love is not contingent on our righteousness; however, he does want us to be free from the entanglement of sin which only leads to carnal-mindedness. Salvation is to be made free from spiritual death and carnal-mindedness.

Now to answer your question. You asked about "eternal fire." Regarding the Day of Pentecost John the Baptist said that we would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. This fire which came down from heaven is the same fire mentioned in Rev 20:9. The fire comes down from heaven and forms a lake (the lake of fire). In Rev 20:15 and in the verse you quoted (Matt 18:8 ) we are given this imagery of someone being cast into (or being baptized) in the lake of fire. This is entirely consistent with the explanations I have already given regarding the "sheep and the goats" and John 5:28-29. Suffering in the lake of fire is a “word picture” of the four elements of God’s wrath that I pointed out in the third principal of the 4th view. I said,

Those who are overcome by sin "reap what they sow" (Gal 6:7-8 ). God's wrath is poured out on them in four ways - (1) The conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 ), (2) the torment of their own conscience (Rom 2:15), (3) the adminstration of the governing authorities (Rom 13:1-4), (4) the destructive nature of sin itself (Rom 1:18-32). This is hell, this is the punishment. It is everlasting in the sense that it will persist so long as the person does not repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

This is how "eternal fire" fits into the 4th view.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

Let's focus on the positive side of what Paul said here. He said, "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This explains what God's desire is for us. He wants us to enjoy "life and peace" that comes from Him during our lifetime.

My own view of this is that we do indeed have peace in this life; the "peace of God that passes all comprehension." It is not a peace that the world would recognize as such. This peace is one that obtains in spite of all manner of suffering and persecution, a peace that allowed Polycarp to be martyred with a smile on his face. It is peace with God; we are no longer at enmity with Him. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son......"

[Guest]

Todd, several people have presented to you the words of Jesus and of Paul which, when taken at face value, say that people will be rewarded or punished (whether correctively or vindictavely) in the after life.

In your efforts to limit these rewards and punishments to this present life, you are interpreting these scriptures figuratively.

Just suppose for a moment that Jesus and Paul were trying to tell us that we will be rewarded or punished in the after life. How could they have said it in such a way that would convince you?

[mgarrett]

Todd,

You said:

Let's focus on the positive side of what Paul said here. He said, "to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This explains what God's desire is for us. He wants us to enjoy "life and peace" that comes from Him during our lifetime.

My own view of this is that we do indeed have peace in this life; the "peace of God that passes all comprehension." It is not a peace that the world would recognize as such. This peace is one that obtains in spite of all manner of suffering and persecution, a peace that allowed Polycarp to be martyred with a smile on his face. It is peace with God; we are no longer at enmity with Him. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son......"

Homer,

This is exactly what I am talking about - we agree on this.

Todd

[mgarrett]

Todd, several people have presented to you the words of Jesus and of Paul which, when taken at face value, say that people will be rewarded or punished (whether correctively or vindictavely) in the after life.

In your efforts to limit these rewards and punishments to this present life, you are interpreting these scriptures figuratively.

Just suppose for a moment that Jesus and Paul were trying to tell us that we will be rewarded or punished in the after life. How could they have said it in such a way that would convince you?

Paidion,

I'm not sure which verses you are referring to. If you are talking about John 5:28-29 then may I assume that you believe that John 5:24 is talking about physical death?

Todd

[mgarrett]

fof, the article I posted a link to has everything to do with what you are saying, the Judgment comes on the Lords Day scripture says, it is mans day in this age. There are no judgments until that time.

John 12:31-32
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

JF,

I am very familiar with the traditional view. I grew up with it. What I am trying to present here is an alternative veiw. One in which, to me, can be harmonized with scripture and also present a more loving idea of God....because, after all, God is love.

Look at the following scripture.

1 Thess 5:2-5
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

According to the traditional view this passage would not make much sense because people have been living and dying for centuries without a judgment. Where is the "sudden destruction" that this passage talks about if people live and die for centuries with no punishment. When they say, "Peace and Safety!" they get peace and safety, for rest of their lives....there is nothing "sudden" about their punishment.

But according to the 4th view their destruction is truly sudden, it does come like a thief in the night. For someone who persists in unlawful activities the "Day of the Lord" comes when the police discover him. For someone else who has an appetite for pornography, the "Day of the Lord" may come when he loses his family. Another person may find sudden destruction from the unending torment of his conscience because of his sinful activity. And yet another may be so overcome in his carnal sin that the Lord gives him over to a reprobate mind.

But there is a hopeful side to the 4th view as well. Every one of these can repent and be saved and find true peace and contentment in Him. God allows these things to happen to draw us unto him. God's punishments are meant in a corrective manner.

Todd