Why not Universal Reconciliation?

[Paidion]

I am not among those who place the scriptural record below my personal instincts, nor am I one who objects to just retribution against criminal behavior.

That one of whom you speak does not place the scriptural record below his personal instincts either. Rather He places the character of God above the OT records, and the law of Christ above the law of Moses (which Jesus in Matt 5,6, and 7 didn't even acknowledge as coming from God, but as having been "said by those of old time."

That person does indeed object morally to retribution of any kind, but believes criminals must be dealt with with a view to character change. That is precisely why Canadian prisons have psychological therapeutic programs. When a criminal has a change of heart and mind, he is much less likely to reoffend.

Retributive "justice" has done nothing by way of reforming criminals. Most of them reoffend when released. It also tends to entirely ignore the victims and their needs.
Restorative justice has required the criminal to face his victims if the victims are willing to meet with him (or their families, if the victims are dead), and express his regrets, and offer restitution to the extent that it is possible. With this type of justice, the criminals are much less likely to reoffend. Many justice systems are beginning to move away from retributive "justice" and toward restorative justice.

The pioneer of restorative justice is no doubt Howard Zehr who wrote the book "Changing Lenses", a book which is available from Amazon.
Howard is the son of a Mennonite church leader. His background is described in the following Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zehr

Here is the Restorative Justice Online site:

http://www.restorativejustice.org/artic ... 0lenses%22

And the "Little Book of Restorative Justice" has been made available by UNICEF and is free online:

http://www.unicef.org/tdad/littlebookrjpakaf.pdf

Finally, I draw your attention again to my signature statement:

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing.
God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

[paulespino]

Hi Paidion,

I have a question regarding UR and I know you can clarify it for me.

1) Can we equate retribution with discipline and punishment?

Isn't it that retribution and discipline are the consequences of a person's action.

According to Google dictionary that discipline is a process of correcting a person's behaviour through Punishment.

2) You wrote:

Retributive "justice" has done nothing by way of reforming criminals. Most of them reoffend when released. It also tends to entirely ignore the victims and their needs.

According to UR, in my own understanding that in the afterlife God will punish the people who disobeyed God in order to change them and make them accept Christ, it seems that your statement above contradicts God's way of changing the violators in the afterlife.

Thanks

[Paidion]

According to UR, in my own understanding that in the afterlife God will punish the people who disobeyed God in order to change them and make them accept Christ, it seems that your statement above contradicts God's way of changing the violators in the afterlife.

Normally, retributive punishment does not bring about change, for it is not done out of love. "Punishment" which is administered out of love with a view to correction may lead to repentance by the offender, and bring about a change in him. Retributive punishment is administered either out of revenge, and penal punishment is administered from a legal point of view. That is, "You have done X. You have broken a rule (or a law). The rule or law is that you must receive Punishment Y for this offence." In this kind of "justice", it doesn't matter whether the offender repents or changes. He must receive the penalty, for that is how the law works. Some people think God is like that, that He has a set of commandments, and that if you break one, you must pay the penalty.

I've heard about a couple who have a household set of rules for their children. Their rules were written down stating the penalties for each infringement. One little girl was caught breaking one of the rules. She wept and said she would never do it again. Her father hugged her and told her, "I love you and am glad you are sorry about what you have done. But rules are rules, and you know the penalty for what you did. I am going to have to spank you, though it grieves me to have to do so!"

Some think such a parent to be very loving, wise, and just. I think his action is ludicrous if the girl was truly repentant and determined not to repeat the offence. Spanking the girl didn't help her, or her parents, or anyone else. The father stuck to his set of rules and penalties—but for what purpose?

God doesn't work that way. Here is the way God works:

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:4-11)

The only reason God causes discomfort in anyone is to train him in righteousness. And even then He administers no more discomfort than what is absolutely necessary. He doesn't administer "justice" by a set of rules and penalties. He administers justice (fairness) according to the attitudes and states of mind of the offender. He is pure LOVE, and will do his best for each person, even though it may cause pain in varying degrees, depending upon the offender's response to Him.

[paulespino]

Thanks for the reply Paidion, I can tell you that I was hostile with the idea of UR before but not anymore, actually I find it to be very attractive but I'm still not a UR convert.

I will leave it to God meanwhile I will do what I need to to do and that is to Love everybody including my enemies.

[Ian]

I want to be in your camp, Paidion. I like the spirit behind your posts. But there seem to be a lot of examples of retributive punishment, starting with Adam and Eve. God did not say to them, the day you eat of that tree I am going to discipline you.

The case of God killing David`s son is also hard to understand in this context. If his son had been made ill for a while and then recovered after David had finally learnt his lesson, it would have fitted. But no, He killed him.

[Paidion]

...there seem to be a lot of examples of retributive punishment, starting with Adam and Eve. God did not say to them, the day you eat of that tree I am going to discipline you. The case of God killing David`s son is also hard to understand in this context. If his son had been made ill for a while and then recovered after David had finally learnt his lesson, it would have fitted. But no, He killed him.

Hi Ian. I believe in the character of God as Jesus, the apostles, and other Christian writers portrayed Him.
The mind set of the ancient Hebrews was that of revenge. They frequently took revenge upon their enemies, and penally punished those who broke the Mosaic law. They didn't understand the true character of God. No one understood it until Jesus revealed it. No Old Testament writer ever stated that God is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people as Jesus did. (Luke 6:35). In the OT, God was perceived to be a God of vengeance who severely administered penalties for breaking the Mosaic law. Jesus indicated the true law of God, which one might call "the Law beneath the law" (which Paul called "the law of Christ"). In his reference to the laws of Moses, Jesus didn't even indicate that they were God's laws, but rather stated, "It was said to you of old time...., but I say to you..."

As I see it, the ancient Hebrews projected their own vengeful and legalistic mind set upon God, believing that God had commanded them to stone to death rebellious sons, cut off a woman's hands if she tried to defend her husband grabbing an aggressor's genitals, etc. It was presumed that God killed the man who had steadied the ark, and that He killed David's son because of David's adultery, and indirect murder of Bathsheba's husband.

There are many other things which could be said about the mindset of the ancient Hebrews. There was a double-standard sexually. In their minds, there was nothing wrong with a man having several wives, or consorting with prostitutes, as long as he didn't have another man's wife, and "God" gave no command to them against such practices. But a wife couldn't have any man other than her husband, or she would be stoned to death.

The passage I quoted from Hebrews indicates the way God disciplines his children. He doesn't administer useless penalties, or vengeful punishment that serves no purpose other than to vent one's anger upon an offender.

Jesus revealed the character of God as He truly is. He revealed the real law of God in the "sermon on the mount", as found it Matt 5, 6, and 7 and elsewhere. I am a Christian, and so I follow Jesus' teachings.

[Ian]

Hi Paidion,

Thank you for your reply.

Is it your view that Moses, the presumed author of Genesis, coloured the Garden of Eden narrative in like projective fashion?

[steve]

The passage I quoted from Hebrews indicates the way God disciplines his children.

True, but the same passage says there are those whom God does not discipline, because they are not His children, but bastards (Heb.12:8).

Paidion, in our past discussions on this point, you have discredited every biblical author (Old and New Testament) who did not agree with your sentiments. You have thus affirmed that not only Moses, David and the prophets, but also Peter, Paul, Luke and others in the New Testament were less knowledgable than you are about the character of God. While this is remotely possible, you have provided no reasons for anyone to assign to you such a superior rank above all the biblical authors.

Now you quote the writer of Hebrews, as if he knew the character of God's judgments as well as you do, but neglect to point out that the same writer wrote that those apostates, who trample the Son of God underfoot will receive "much worse punishment" than that of "those who rejected Moses' law" and "died without mercy" (10:28-29). He then quotes God as saying: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" [not "Discipline is mine, I will rehabilitate"] (Heb.10:30).

I am interested in your explanation of how the same writer, whom you think correctly consigned all the judgments of God to mere corrective discipline, in chapter 12, could have grown so much more enlightened in his understanding of God's character and dealings within the time that it took him to write two chapters after speaking of God's vengeance.

[Paidion]

Paidion, in our past discussions on this point, you have discredited every biblical author (Old and New Testament) who did not agree with your sentiments. You have thus affirmed that not only Moses, David and the prophets, but also Peter, Paul, Luke and others in the New Testament were less knowledgable than you are about the character of God.

Please quote my discreditation of Peter, Paul, Luke, and others.

[Paidion]

True, but the same passage says there are those whom God does not discipline, because they are not His children, but bastards (Heb.12:8).

True, but refraining for disciplining His non-children in this life does not imply that He punishes them either retributively or penally.

Now you quote the writer of Hebrews, as if he knew the character of God's judgments as well as you do, but neglect to point out that the same writer wrote that those apostates, who trample the Son of God underfoot will receive "much worse punishment" than that of "those who rejected Moses' law" and "died without mercy" (10:28-29). He then quotes God as saying: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" [not "Discipline is mine, I will rehabilitate"] (Heb.10:30).

No, the same writer did not state that those apostates "will receive much worse punishment". He asked the question, "Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy? (who is such an apostate)

Secondly the word "εκδικησις" doesn't necessarily mean "vengeance". Consider 2 Cor. 7:11, where Paul commends the Corinthians for their behaviour toward the man who had been copulating with his step-mother, who had by then repented, and whom Paul asked them to forgive:

For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what εκδικησις! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Would it make any sense to translate the word as "vengeance" in this sentence? Paul indicates that justice was done to all parties. Indeed, etymologically, the word seems means "out of justice". Justice doesn't necessarily imply punishment, but rather has the connotation of fairness.


As I see it, the writer to the Hebrews is indicating that if it comes to penalties such as was administered under the law of Moses, that is, the death penalty for disregarding it, then these apostates deserve much worse, without stating just what penalty could be worse than death. But then He indicates the day will come when God will bring forth justice to all. This justice will involve vindication for the innocent who have been wrongfully harmed and severe correction for the offenders.

"Justice is mine; I will repay." The word translated as "repay" is not necessarily a negative term. Also notice in verse 30, the author quotes "The Lord will judge his people" as an equivalent to "Justice is mine; I will repay." All of the Lord's judgments are remedial. The God who is LOVE has no heart for retribution, and no desire for administering penalties which serve no positive purpose.