Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Paidion]

I think I look at Matt 18 (and most of what Jesus said during his ministry) in light of the fact that this was prior to his death and ressurection. In other words, during a time period where the old covenant was still in effect. At this time, no one could be justified through the attonement of Christ's blood, because it was still a future event.

If I look at this passage in light of Mosaic law, it seems to be an example yet again of how it was impossible for people to meet the demands of the law. Jesus explained many times that you needed to fulfill the "spirit" of the law, not just the "word", and of course everyone falls short. He explained this to show that justification through the law wasn't possible, and that his death and ressurection was necessary.

I'd be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts in this regard (underlining Paidion's).

I can't make sense of this. If, at the time Jesus spoke this parable, no one could be justified through Christ's atonement, nor could they be justified through the law, does this imply that they couldn't be justified at all?
In that case, what would be the fate of those who died during those days? Would every one of them go to hell?

What do you say about the man described in the following passage? Was Symeon one of the just, one of God's children? Or did this man, after death, go to hell (or will he at his resurrection)?

Now there was in Jerusalem a man named Symeon, an upright, devout man; he was expecting to see the consolation of Israel, and he was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not die without seeing the Lord’s Messiah. So under the Spirit’s guidance he went into the temple, and when the parents brought the child Jesus there to do for Him as the custom of the law required, Symeon also took Him in his arms and blessed God, and said: "Now, Master, you will let your slave go free In peace, as you have promised; For my eyes have seen your Salvation, which you prepared before all peoples,a light of revelation to the heathen, and a glory to your people Israel." (Luke 2:25-32 Williams)

[Colin]

I can't make sense of this. If, at the time Jesus spoke this parable, no one could be justified through Christ's atonement, nor could they be justified through the law, does this imply that they couldn't be justified at all?
In that case, what would be the fate of those who died during those days? Would every one of them go to hell?

As I understand it, everyone who died in those days would go to hades, which is some kind of holding place. But, if you are asking if anyone would have their name written in the book of life absent the atonement of Jesus, my answer would be no.

[Paidion]

Colin, what would you say then about Abraham?

In writing to the Galatians about those who are justified by faith, he seems to include Abraham (who died long before Christ's sacrificial death). Not only that, but he included faithful disciples of Christ with Abraham who together receive the blessings promised to Abraham:


Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:5-9 ESV)

[Homer]

But faith in what? When the tax collector, Luke 18:13, prayed "God, have mercy on me the sinner" was he not requesting God to act on his behalf? That mercy was completed on the cross, IMO. If the death of Jesus on the cross was to enable us to do good, how did the OT saints do good?

[Paidion]

If the death of Jesus on the cross was to enable us to do good, how did the OT saints do good?

If the death of Jesus on the cross was to make us positionally righteous so that we could go to heaven, how did the OT saints become positionally righteous so that they could go to heaven?

[Homer]

Paidon wrote:

If the death of Jesus on the cross was to make us positionally righteous so that we could go to heaven, how did the OT saints become positionally righteous so that they could go to heaven?

If by "positionally righteous" you mean "justified by faith" then the answer is easy. Jesus died for the sins of all saints, both Old Testament and new. And why would we be surprised at this? The sins of the OT saints required a sacrifice to be made after the fact, or after the sin, and yet that sacrifice was merely provisional. Jesus' sacrifice actually took care of their sins, just as it takes care of the consequences of our sins, and is also after the fact for the sins commited prior to the cross.

Hebrews 10:1-14
New King James Version (NKJV)

1. For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”


8. Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9. then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

[Paidion]

If by "positionally righteous" you mean "justified by faith" then the answer is easy. Jesus died for the sins of all saints, both Old Testament and new.

It would seem, Homer, that an analogous answer could be give to your question:

If the death of Jesus on the cross was to enable us to do good, how did the OT saints do good?

As you wrote: "Jesus died for the sins of all saints, both Old Testament and new."
Thus Jesus died do enable us to be actually righteous as well as the Old Testament saints.

However, I would like to clarify one point. It is possible to work righteousness apart from God's enabling grace as described in Titus chapter 2. But self-effort seems to go only so far. I have seen non-Christians express love sacrificially. However, the sacrifice of Christ makes it possible to be more consistent. As He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ, in that day, it will be completely consistent.

[darinhouston]

However, I would like to clarify one point. It is possible to work righteousness apart from God's enabling grace as described in Titus chapter 2. But self-effort seems to go only so far. I have seen non-Christians express love sacrificially. However, the sacrifice of Christ makes it possible to be more consistent. As He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ, in that day, it will be completely consistent.

Is it not possible that those non-Christians have received a degree of God's grace to enable those righteousnesses? Isn't every breath we take and every step we take by God's grace? God has used an ass as a prophet, could He not use non-Christians to do His will from time to time?

[Homer]

Darin wrote:

Is it not possible that those non-Christians have received a degree of God's grace to enable those righteousnesses? Isn't every breath we take and every step we take by God's grace? God has used an ass as a prophet, could He not use non-Christians to do His will from time to time?

Agreed!

Paidion wrote:

I have seen non-Christians express love sacrificially. However, the sacrifice of Christ makes it possible to be more consistent. As He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ, in that day, it will be completely consistent.

So Jesus died on the cross to help us become marginally improved? That's it? Well that's a bummer.

[Paidion]

So Jesus died on the cross to help us become marginally improved? That's it? Well that's a bummer.

Why do you suggest that I am claiming a "marginal" improvement. Did you not read the next sentence?

"As He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ, in that day, it will be completely consistent."