Another Merger Post

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by Singalphile » Sat May 26, 2012 12:25 pm

mattrose wrote: My combination of EE and EM (the wicked continue to exist, but not as humans) is basically the position of CS Lewis and NT Wright, as far as I can tell. ... I see it as a transitional belief. ... But I would list this 'continue to exist, but not quite as a human' idea as a possibility b/c I think transitional beliefs can serve a purpose.
There's The Great Divorce, but I never understood that to reflect his real view on hell either in the details or even in the general concept. (To me, C.S. Lewis never came across as someone who was bothered or concerned by details of theology or much else.)

The ER/EE merger still seems unnecessarily speculative to me, plausible though it may be, and it does get a little bit "complicated" and, um, awkward, I guess, in the details, I think... but I'm not the deepest thinker.

On the broader topic: I did not abandon the traditional view because I thought it was unjust or unfair or cruel, but rather because it doesn't seem to me to have any Biblical support. I don't think we should presume to know what God should or shouldn't or would or wouldn't do unless it's something specifically stated in scripture. I know perhaps .00000000000000001% of all there is to know. He knows 100%.

Lastly, this topic interests me more than others (Calv/Arm, for example, just bores me to tears). Ya'll are very well read, and I appreciate your scholarship and "complexity". Thanks!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by mattrose » Sat May 26, 2012 1:06 pm

Thanks for the feedback :)

I take CS Lewis' view not so much from 'The Great Divorce,' but from the chapter on 'Hell' in 'The Problem of Pain.' Here, I think, Lewis does deal with some detail oriented questions. I will quote him below...
"It is not necessary to concentrate on the images of torture to the exclusion of those suggesting destruction and privation... destruction, we should naturally assume, means the unmaking, or cessation, of the destroyed. And people often talk as if the 'annihilation' of a soul were intrinsically possible. In all our experiences, however, the destruction of one thing means the emergence of something else. Burn a log, and you have gases, heat and ash... if souls can be destroyed, must there not be a state of having been a human soul? And is not that, perhaps, the state which is equally well described as torment, destruction, and privation." (page 127)
It seems pretty clear here that Lewis is attempting to combine EM and EE. It also seems to me that the ONLY thing holding Lewis from going wholly in the EE direction is his belief in the immortality of the soul. In any case, the quote still seems to favor the EE view. If all he means by continued existence is parallel to gas/heat/ash, that's not much of an existence at all.

But just a page later, Lewis balances this out with quotes that seems to favor EM more than EE:
"To enter hell, is to be banished from humanity. What is cast (or casts itself) into hell is not a man, it is 'remains.' To be a complete man means to have the passions obedient to the will and the will offered to God: to have been a man- to be an ex-man or 'damned ghost'- would presumably mean to consist of a will utterly centered in its self and passions utterly uncontrolled by the will. It is, of course, impossible to imagine what the consciousness of such a creature... would be like." (page 128)
So here he parallels it more to a ghostly existence, but even then still questions whether it would be a conscious state.

NT Wright does something very similar. In his book "Surprised by Hope," he discusses the 'traditional' view of conscious torment, then mentions the 'universalist' view, then finally the 'conditionalist' AKA 'annihilationism.' But after very briefly describing each view, he suggests the following:
"Over against these three options, I propose a view that combines what seem to me the strong points of the first (EM) and third (EE)... my suggestion is that if it is possible for human beings so to continue down this road... that after death they become at last, by their own effective choice, being that once were human but now are not, creatures that have ceased to bear the divine image at all... those creatures still exist in an ex-human state." (page 181-183)
Personally, I don't really feel a need to give EM some continued existence (pardon the pun). It should just be put out of its misery (again, sorry). But I know how difficult it is for most people to abruptly abandon a position they long thought was the only Scriptural view. It is dangerous to mess with people's foundations (a lot of people got saved, initially, because they were afraid of everlasting misery). I offer this 3-legged merger as a helpful transition for traditionalists into open-minded thinking.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by Paidion » Sat May 26, 2012 1:33 pm

Homer wrote:Even Paidion's "lasting" translation of aionios would not make sense if judgement was reversible.
Actually, it makes perfect sense. "Lasting condemnation" implies that those who will be in Gehenna will continue to be condemned there until they repent (have a change of heart and mind) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as we all had to do (if we are disciples). That will be a lasting condemnation indeed!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by Singalphile » Sat May 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Oh, The Problem of Pain. I assume I read it, but if so it's been a while. Thanks.

I agree about not messing with people's foundations. That's is kind of my approach too now (How to Discuss Hell with Others? thread).

Aside, regarding Lewis' apparent believe in universal immortality: The largest church in my area has a Beliefs page with an "Eternity" section that starts with, "People were created to exist forever." Of course their supporting verses (John 3:16!), do not say or imply that. Actually, I search-engined that quoted phrase and it seems that a lot of churches use it.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by mattrose » Sat May 26, 2012 8:13 pm

I suppose I don't disagree with the statement that people were created to exist forever

If you interpret it to mean we are inherently immortal, then I disagree
But if you interpret to mean God desires to gift us with eternal life, I agree

Singalphile
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by Singalphile » Sat May 26, 2012 9:13 pm

mattrose wrote: But if you interpret to mean God desires to gift us with eternal life, I agree
Oh yeah. Good point.

(...but that's not what they mean. They follow it with, "We will either exist eternally separated from God by sin, or we will exist eternally with God through forgiveness and salvation.")
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by mattrose » Sat May 26, 2012 11:53 pm

Singalphile wrote:
mattrose wrote: But if you interpret to mean God desires to gift us with eternal life, I agree
Oh yeah. Good point.

(...but that's not what they mean. They follow it with, "We will either exist eternally separated from God by sin, or we will exist eternally with God through forgiveness and salvation.")
Ah, yes, I wouldn't like that addition :)

User avatar
Perry
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:24 pm

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by Perry » Wed May 30, 2012 11:41 am

wwalkeriv wrote: Mark speaks of the worm that dies not, how do you explain this?
One type of "worm that dies not" is a caterpillar. It doesn't die, but rather enters into a chrysalis where it "melts" into a kind of genetic "soup" from which, eventually, a butterfly breaks free.

Another type of a "worm that dies not" is a common maggot, which is exactly what you would expect to find among the decaying bodies of the dead. I maggot becomes a fly.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by mattrose » Wed May 30, 2012 2:37 pm

wwalkeriv wrote: Mark speaks of the worm that dies not, how do you explain this?
It's also worth going back to the passage in Isaiah where that language comes from.
And they [all remaining mankind?] will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind. (Isaiah 66:24)
Even if we interpret this verse very literally, neither the worms, nor the fire, are consuming conscious human beings. They are consuming dead bodies.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Another Merger Post

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 30, 2012 3:38 pm

Another type of a "worm that dies not" is a common maggot, which is exactly what you would expect to find among the decaying bodies of the dead. I maggot becomes a fly.
That's interesting.

Post Reply

Return to “Views of Hell”