Conditional Immortality Links

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Suzana
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by Suzana » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:50 am

RickC wrote:Yeah, OK, I don't have to be "serious" and perfectly on-topic all the time....
But could you guys please give links to threads, perhaps?
Hi Rick,
8-) Great sense of humour - I knew it would hold up!
Links sound like a good idea, I'll have to try do some.

later...
OK, it worked! - and here it is
Suzana
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If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher

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Michelle
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by Michelle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:27 am

Since this topic has veered all over the place, I just wanted to try this.

Here is where the discussion about marriage went a little off track.

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RickC
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by RickC » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:05 pm

rofl... :lol: ... I was only kidding about the links....
{you guys made me laugh my cawfee thru my nose}! :shock:
But good idea, whoever had it ... 8-)

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RND
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by RND » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:14 am

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
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RickC
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by RickC » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:44 am

Thanks, RND.

I've got these links bookmarked for future reference. I could have used some of this material earlier; particularly wrt Platonic philosophy and Origen. Lots of reading here, thanks again.

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RND
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by RND » Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:51 am

You are most welcome Rick.

Anything that clearly demonstrates the fact that a God so full of love and mercy would choose to allow His very own creation to beat Him, spit in His face and nail Him to a cross and yet be forgiven by Him of these things before even realizing their sin is worthy to discuss.

It is such a shame that Satan has blinded to the world to the true nature and character of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

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Paidion
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:26 pm

I don't believe in conditional immortality. I believe in unconditional mortality! Everyone will die except those disciples who will be alive at the coming of Christ.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. I Corinthians 15:51,52 ESV

However ALL will be raised to life. There will be a resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked (There is no scriptural evidence that the wicked will simply remain dead. This is what the term "conditional immortality" suggests to me.)

However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:14,15 NIV

The question is really what will happen to the "wicked" (or the "unsaved" if you prefer). Will they be eternally conscious either in a place of eternal suffering, or in a place of temporary correcting and cleansing? Or will they be annihilated at their judgment?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by steve » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:50 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
"There will be a resurrection of the righteous and of the wicked (There is no scriptural evidence that the wicked will simply remain dead. This is what the term "conditional immortality" suggests to me.)"
I know you associate immortality only with the resurrection of the body, not the immortality of a "soul" separate from the body. In this belief most "extinctionists" (the term that Fudge now uses for the conditional immortality advocates) will agree with you.

Where they would differ with you is upon the question of whether the resurrected bodies of the unsaved are immortal, as are the bodies of the saved. Extinctionists (like yourself) usually do not believe in the survival of the soul after death. But, if I correctly understand the view, they do believe all people will rise in the resurrection. Thus, like you, they do not believe that "the wicked will simply remain dead."

You might be assuming (along with most people) that all resurrected bodies are de facto immortal—a belief that leads traditionalists to consign the lost to eternal conscious torment, and leads universalists to postulate their eventual reconciliation to God. Thus, both traditionalists and universalists have an eternal conscious destiny in mind for all human beings. The extinctionists, by contrast, see a conscious eternal destiny only for those who have met the conditions (in this life) for immortality—namely, faith in Christ. The rest, after their resurrection, and, possibly, suitable punishment, are then rendered extinct.

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Todd
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by Todd » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:29 pm

Steve,

You wrote....
steve wrote:The extinctionists, by contrast, see a conscious eternal destiny only for those who have met the conditions (in this life) for immortality—namely, faith in Christ. The rest, after their resurrection, and, possibly, suitable punishment, are then rendered extinct.
I suppose all of us try to understand the scriptures in a way that makes sense to us in accordance with what we have learned and feel is "right" in our soul (as the Spirit bears witness with our spirit). To me, CI would make more sense if the unrighteous simply would remain dead. I see no purpose to raising them only to punish and then destroy them again. Where is the mercy in that? Would it not be more merciful to simply let them remain dead? I cannot see the "Father of Mercies" raising and destroying like that. But, of course, my understanding is limited.

Todd

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steve
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Re: Conditional Immortality Links

Post by steve » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:57 pm

Harry Blamires was a friend of and a student under C.S. Lewis. He wrote a book about Heaven and Hell, in which he assumed the traditional view to be correct. I thought he made a good point that would also possibly answer your question for the extinctionist. Blamires wrote:

"A Hitler, a Himmler, an Eichmann, or a Stalin can only die once. At their death there may be a sense of satisfaction that the world has been cleansed of their presence. But there is no conviction that they have faced a true reckoning of what they have done to others. Justice and truth demand that they should." (Harry Blamires, Knowing the Truth About Heaven & Hell, p.7)

He elaborated more on this point but I think this paragraph summarizes the basic idea.

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