Lydia's Heart

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Homer
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Lydia's Heart

Post by Homer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:52 am

Acts 16:14 (NASB)
14. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.


This would seem to be a proof-text for Calvinism, i.e. God regenerated Lydia, "opened her heart" which enabled her to believe. But Paul said the gospel "is the power unto salvation". Did God open her heart directly (regeneration) or indirectly by the preaching of the word? I would say the latter but then why do I pray for God to open hearts? It would seem that He might reply "preach the word". But if that is tried and didn't go well, then what? This has happened to my wife and me regarding someone we are close to. Jesus told us not to cast pearls before swine. When we pray to God to do something to save the obstinate sinner, what do we expect Him to do?

dizerner

Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:46 am

Terrific question and post, Homer. What's God's part and what's our part? And when do we give up praying and believing for someone?

I think it's fine and biblical to pray that God would open someone's heart. Basically, as an Arminian, I feel I can pray anything except one thing: God make the decision for them. I can't pray that. I can pray "God show them it's true; show them it's desirable; show them it's reasonable; show them how merciful and good you are; show them what Jesus has done; show them that Satan wants to destroy them; give them grace to not be offended by the unknowns." But I would never, ever pray "God force them to say yes, take away their free will."

It is said the Lord opened Lydia's heart. But Calvinists often leave out the whole passage. There is more to it. What does it say immediately before?

One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God.

So this wasn't out of the blue—Lydia had a prepared heart inclined to God. As Christ said "If anyone wills to know God's will he will know what teaching is of God." Even in John 6, a passage Calvinists love, there is the strong teaching that those who are "seeking" and those who are "willing" are the ones whom the Father will draw to Christ (see my study of John 6 from an Arminian perspective here: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ing#p66659).

There is a time that Scripture says "don't pray anymore." Once in the OT (in Jeremiah) and once in the NT (1 John 5:16). I believe that applies to someone who has been given an extraordinary amount of grace and light. I wouldn't give up praying for someone with an initial or continued rejection of a Gospel presentation (there is a valley of decision). But once you know they've made up their mind, I think that's the sin that leads to death.

God bless!

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Paidion
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:53 am

Yes Homer, the passage clearly states that God opened her heart. But I don't see that as Calvinistic. Lydia could still have refused the words which Paul spoke.

The words of the gospel alone are insufficient to bring someone into the door of salvation. God has a hand in each and every case of entering that door. Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:36 am

There is a time that Scripture says "don't pray anymore." Once in the OT (in Jeremiah) and once in the NT (1 John 5:16)


Hi Dizerner,

I used to read the passage in 1 John the same way. It was brought to my attention some years ago that the verse doesn't say that you shouldn't or can't pray in such a case, but merely that John says he doesn't command that one do so. It appears to still be an option on the part of the one offering the prayer.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:23 pm

Well, I trust John's opinion on what to do.

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TheEditor
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:55 pm

Hi Dizerner,

I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying that John was saying you "shouldn't" but that I am saying you "should". What I am saying is that the verse reads that John says you "should" in one circumstance, but he is not saying you "should" in the other. However, not saying that one "should" is not the same as saying you "should not". For example, if I tell my child "You should eat your peas", but then I say "But I am not saying you should eat your carrots", that does not mean I am saying he "can't" eat his carrots, merely that I am saying one is an obligation, the other is an option. Savvy? :D

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Lydia's Heart

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:37 pm

dizerner wrote:I wouldn't give up praying for someone with an initial or continued rejection of a Gospel presentation (there is a valley of decision). But once you know they've made up their mind, I think that's the sin that leads to death.

God bless!
Hi dizerner,

Though I agree with most of what you said, this could be construed as a highly subjective and speculative stance. However, I don't really blame you or anyone else taking "a stab" at what John is talking about. It would propbably be better to stick close to what John was taught by Yeshua. 1 John 3:14 speaks of 'a death' and this is none other than spiritual. John only knew of one sin that produces irreconcilable spiritual death, and that's blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. IMHO, regarding 1 John 5:16, this would be the only viable option that squares with scripture. No one can be dogmatic concerning what John meant, but again, God absolutely made sure the original audience received the message and its meaning loud and clear.

God Bless.

steve7150
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:51 pm

Acts 16:14 (NASB)
14. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.


This would seem to be a proof-text for Calvinism, i.e. God regenerated Lydia, "opened her heart" which enabled her to believe. But Paul said the gospel "is the power unto salvation". Did God open her heart directly (regeneration) or indirectly by the preaching of the word? I would say the latter







But even if God actually did open her heart it would have been for God's purposes for this specific person and not any kind of indicator that he does this most of the time or all of the time.

dizerner

Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:59 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Dizerner,

I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying that John was saying you "shouldn't" but that I am saying you "should". What I am saying is that the verse reads that John says you "should" in one circumstance, but he is not saying you "should" in the other. However, not saying that one "should" is not the same as saying you "should not". For example, if I tell my child "You should eat your peas", but then I say "But I am not saying you should eat your carrots", that does not mean I am saying he "can't" eat his carrots, merely that I am saying one is an obligation, the other is an option. Savvy? :D

Regards, Brenden.
You'd make a great politician... :shock:

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TheEditor
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Re: Lydia's Heart

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:36 pm

Hi Dizerner,

I can take a good joke. I'm married after all. :lol: But in all seriousness, I was really not trying to obfuscate or straddle. I sincererly believe John is saying that he is instructing them to pray for brothers who err. In this sense he is "commanding" it. But he is not saying that they cannot (by way of instruction or command) pray for the sin that incurs death. He is merely saying that he does not instruct them to pray. I think my analogy, as simple as it was, makes my take clear. I realize that others see it differently. I was raised to believe it was a sin to pray for someone that strayed from the faith, based upon this verse. I just now feel that this particular verse isn't saying that. I also realize that this passage is controversial. If you ever get an opportunity, I would recommend checking out Barclay's comments on the passage, as he brings some Jewish context in, as well as early notions of forgiveness after baptism. I think it's worth a read. :)

Regards, Brenden.

[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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