How to explain Isaiah 10 from a non-Calvinist perspective?
Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:48 am
Question for Steve (or anyone else who wants to take a crack at it)...
I have listened through the older and newer audios on the narrow path regarding Calvinism vs non-Calvinism. Myself I am a "non-Calvinist" and agree with Steve's points. I liked his reasonable explanations about how certain events in the bible came about involving non-believers like Pharoah, and other folks whose hearts were "hardened". One example I haven't heard specifically was about the king of Assyria in Isaiah 10, and how this example is used by Calvinists, and by non-Calvinists regarding Freewill/Predestination.
One Calvinists explained it this way...
He felt that it was not difficult to reconcile Freewill and Predestination, and cited Isaiah 10:5-11 where God judges Arrogant Assyria
"..Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him,and against the people of my wrath I command him,to take spoil and seize plunder,and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy,and to cut off nations not a few; for he says:“Are not my commanders all kings? Is not Calno like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad? Is not Samaria like Damascus? As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols, whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria, shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols as I have done to Samaria and her images? When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, hea will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes".
Calvinist said this....:
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He said here we had a clear example of God's sovereignty and man's sin. Israel had broken the covenant, and now were experiencing the curses, which God uses Assyria to do. So God says HE is bringing Assyria to punish. BUT in verse 7 it says of this king that "...he does not so intend..." If the non-Calvinist believes in FREEWILL then HOW CAN IT BE? It's not Assyria's intentions to serve God after all! The Assyrian are evil pagans. In fact God has had to restrain their hand. So much for "FREEWILL" on ANY level here. If God is doing this, then there's NO "autonomous freewill" as some suppose. Please note the INTENTIONALITY. It's based on the INTENTIONS of their HEARTS they are judged. They are judged for the attitudes of THEIR hearts. THAT is the important thing to remember. THAT's what's missing in all the criticisms from the non-Calvinist. They refuse to allow the biblical categories to stand - that God judges us based on the intentions of our hearts. God's SOVEREIGN DECREES and JUDGEMENT ON SIN are compatible. These men of Assyria are not innocent moral agents being forced to do something bad. They are doing what they want to do. God has to restrain them... but uses their evil for his purpose. They are judged on the attitude of their heart of the king of Assyria: a refusal to acknowledge what they have come from God's hand. It's sinful not to acknowledge that all you have comes from God - that's what Romans 1 tell us. So there you have a clear biblical example. CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT THE TEXT DOES NOT SAY WHAT I SAY? IS that not a consistent reading of Isaiah 10?
How I might explain it...:
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On the surface it would APPEAR that what this Calvinist is saying might be true, and that this supports Calvinism. But it doesn't in my opinion. What if the King of Assyria - like past kings (e.g. Pharaoh) had his own heart hardened? The bible doesn't necessarily give us all the details of all that went down. It certainly wouldn't be something unprecedented; 2) Also it doesn't mention that God "FORCES" the king to attack Israel. PERHAPS God was influencing INDIRECTLY through political events or setting up this same king for earlier victories against other pagan nations. Nothing here gives any consciousness of the king hearing from God;
Not sure what else to say specifically of this example? How do we non-Calvinists explain what might have happened here?
I have listened through the older and newer audios on the narrow path regarding Calvinism vs non-Calvinism. Myself I am a "non-Calvinist" and agree with Steve's points. I liked his reasonable explanations about how certain events in the bible came about involving non-believers like Pharoah, and other folks whose hearts were "hardened". One example I haven't heard specifically was about the king of Assyria in Isaiah 10, and how this example is used by Calvinists, and by non-Calvinists regarding Freewill/Predestination.
One Calvinists explained it this way...
He felt that it was not difficult to reconcile Freewill and Predestination, and cited Isaiah 10:5-11 where God judges Arrogant Assyria
"..Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him,and against the people of my wrath I command him,to take spoil and seize plunder,and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy,and to cut off nations not a few; for he says:“Are not my commanders all kings? Is not Calno like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad? Is not Samaria like Damascus? As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols, whose carved images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria, shall I not do to Jerusalem and her idols as I have done to Samaria and her images? When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, hea will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes".
Calvinist said this....:
-----------------------------------------
He said here we had a clear example of God's sovereignty and man's sin. Israel had broken the covenant, and now were experiencing the curses, which God uses Assyria to do. So God says HE is bringing Assyria to punish. BUT in verse 7 it says of this king that "...he does not so intend..." If the non-Calvinist believes in FREEWILL then HOW CAN IT BE? It's not Assyria's intentions to serve God after all! The Assyrian are evil pagans. In fact God has had to restrain their hand. So much for "FREEWILL" on ANY level here. If God is doing this, then there's NO "autonomous freewill" as some suppose. Please note the INTENTIONALITY. It's based on the INTENTIONS of their HEARTS they are judged. They are judged for the attitudes of THEIR hearts. THAT is the important thing to remember. THAT's what's missing in all the criticisms from the non-Calvinist. They refuse to allow the biblical categories to stand - that God judges us based on the intentions of our hearts. God's SOVEREIGN DECREES and JUDGEMENT ON SIN are compatible. These men of Assyria are not innocent moral agents being forced to do something bad. They are doing what they want to do. God has to restrain them... but uses their evil for his purpose. They are judged on the attitude of their heart of the king of Assyria: a refusal to acknowledge what they have come from God's hand. It's sinful not to acknowledge that all you have comes from God - that's what Romans 1 tell us. So there you have a clear biblical example. CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT THE TEXT DOES NOT SAY WHAT I SAY? IS that not a consistent reading of Isaiah 10?
How I might explain it...:
-----------------------------------------
On the surface it would APPEAR that what this Calvinist is saying might be true, and that this supports Calvinism. But it doesn't in my opinion. What if the King of Assyria - like past kings (e.g. Pharaoh) had his own heart hardened? The bible doesn't necessarily give us all the details of all that went down. It certainly wouldn't be something unprecedented; 2) Also it doesn't mention that God "FORCES" the king to attack Israel. PERHAPS God was influencing INDIRECTLY through political events or setting up this same king for earlier victories against other pagan nations. Nothing here gives any consciousness of the king hearing from God;
Not sure what else to say specifically of this example? How do we non-Calvinists explain what might have happened here?