Calvinism is Strange Indeed

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by TheEditor » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:44 pm

Hi Homer,

I have thought of it that way as well. But we have knotty factors such as Jesus' use of analogies; the Priodigal Son comes to mind. Also, he uses human interaction with children such as:

"Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he?  Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish—he will not hand him a serpent, will he?  Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?" (Matthew 7:9-11)

Jesus regularly appeals to our human emotions--our innate sense of love, justice and mercy when painting a portrait of God. Therefore, it is inconceivable that the Calvinist God could be the one Jesus reflected.

I made reference before to "heavy lifting"; It seems to me that a simplistic answer such as "God is God, and whatever He does is fine by me" skirts uncomfortable questions. Sure, the Amish for instance being Calvinists, can accept a school shooting (as they did years back when it happened to them) as "God's Providence". And, I suppose that if one can wrap their mind around that idea, it is a simple and satisfying answer--for those minds that can so wrap. But if one is a bit more thoughtful about it, it raises some not-so-easy questions.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by dizerner » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:16 pm

I think Homer brings up an important point about father analogies. In some ways God allows us to relate to him in a familiar familial sense and in some ways not. You see this line of argument all the time to make a doctrinal point: "Well, I wouldn't do this to my own son, or I wouldn't do that." We should certainly balance out everything Christ taught about our relationship to God so we don't just take the warm, fuzzy goodies, and we can say we preached the "whole" counsel of God, as Paul would have it. There are many instances where Christ taught us to fear God in a way that would far transcend any earthly relationship, and we throw those out at our own peril. I've seen people use this argument countless times (and it has to be something super emotional of course). I think we all have to agree that looking around at the evil in the world, a feeling of being offended at God is simply inescapable. But I would never tell my own child, "Don't be afraid of the bullies at school, that can just knock your teeth out or steal your lunch, but be afraid of me because I can beat the crap out of you a thousand times worse," and even if a father felt justified in saying it, very few would count it as good parenting. Yet Christ basically said exactly that, and a whole lot more. And in the Old Testament saints, Paul says many rebelled and died because of disobedience. Would I kill my child if he was rebellious? No of course not, I would have a hard time with minimal discipline. Even Moses and Aaron were quite upset at the harshness of God's judgments at times, and the NT carries on this spirit of severity quite often. Behold the goodness and severity of God says Paul, and I'm reminded of the old poem "When she's good, she's very, very good, but when she's bad, she's horrid."

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by TheEditor » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:44 pm

Hi Dizerner,

I understand your point, but I'm not sure I'm making mine effectively enough. Using terms like "warm and fuzzy" is a cute way to take the steam out of the argument, but it's not an address to the core issue. Jesus allays fears over the temporal with the eternal, but nowhere implies God is cruel or unjust or arbitrary. I try to stick with the NT as much as possible, because there are other factors at play in the OT, primarily the fact that there was a covenant relationship of "If you do a, b and c, I will do x, y, and z." We don't have that now. This is where the Prosperity Preachers err I believe in applying OT promises of blessing to the Christian. We have no such promise. Also, there is a bit of an "I'm looking after number 1" attitude in some of the Proverbs, whereas in the NT it is the opposite.

I'm not talking about a "warm and fuzzy" God. I'm talking about one that exercises the same kind of mercy and justice that we would admire in a human. God can take other things into account, such as motive. We can't always read hearts or motive. He also can give back life and we cannot. I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I spent too many years believing that God was interested in Himself and His reputation first and foremost, and "creatures" such as us humans, were way down on His list of priorities. Calvinism reminds me of my old way of thinking.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:04 am

Hi Brenden,

If I may comment on your reply to dizerner:

You wrote:
Jesus allays fears over the temporal with the eternal, but nowhere implies God is cruel or unjust or arbitrary.
Agreed, but as dizerner pointed out there is a threat to do far greater harm to persons than we are capable of doing to each other and God is not unjust in doing so.
I try to stick with the NT as much as possible, because there are other factors at play in the OT, primarily the fact that there was a covenant relationship of "If you do a, b and c, I will do x, y, and z." We don't have that now.
I think there were hundreds of a, b, and c's to be done under the Old Covenant but there is still faith that must be acted upon under the New Covenant today and God will still do x,y, and z.
This is where the Prosperity Preachers err I believe in applying OT promises of blessing to the Christian. We have no such promise.
In reference to God being like a good father you just referenced: "Indeed, who is the man among YOU whom his son asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he? Or, perhaps, he will ask for a fish—he will not hand him a serpent, will he? Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will YOUR Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?" (Matthew 7:9-11)

And here is where the analogy breaks down. Taken as a literal analogy, the Prosperity Preachers can make hay (or a lot of money) out of this statement by Jesus. It seems to me Jesus is speaking about the Father giving the Spirit to those who ask. I could be wrong, but see: Luke 11:13, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
I'm not talking about a "warm and fuzzy" God. I'm talking about one that exercises the same kind of mercy and justice that we would admire in a human.


But again we are applying a human standard to God. Would we admire a man who acted as God did in the incident where Uzzah, seemingly innocently, was struck down for touching the Arc? Would we admire a human judge who ordered a modern Ananias and Sapphira put to death for hypocrisy? (Come to think of it, if one act of hypocrisy resulted in our death, we would probably all be dead. :( ) These examples are from the OT and NT. How are they to be reconciled to the modern view? How does the father analogy fit with Jesus' exhortation to "fear Him...."?

I think the father analogy very useful. Jesus obviously thought so, but I think we pour meaning into it that would not have occurred to the people in the ANE, and it is stretched beyond Jesus' intention by our modern sentimental ideas.

On the other hand, I am in great sympathy with you regarding Calvinism. :D

Getting late for an old man. Be blessed!

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:20 pm

Homer, you wrote:Would we admire a human judge who ordered a modern Ananias and Sapphira put to death for hypocrisy? (Come to think of it, if one act of hypocrisy resulted in our death, we would probably all be dead.
You don't have a shred of evidence that God put Ananias and Sapphira to death. The gospel writer doesn't say so. It is but conjecture. My conjecture is that they both died from fear at the words of Peter.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by psimmond » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:16 pm

Paidion wrote: My conjecture is that they both died from fear at the words of Peter.
It's possible but highly unlikely. Ananias dropped dead when Peter said, "You have not lied to men but to God!” That might sound a little scary, but probably not scary enough to make a person fall dead. And the fact that Peter was able to perfectly predict what would happen to the wife implies divine intervention. Can you imagine if Peter would have said "Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!" and nothing would have happened. Peter would have felt pretty silly. But maybe people back then had weak hearts and scared easily.

I think it's funny how this thread has meandered... :D
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by TheEditor » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:30 pm

Hi Homer,

You wrote:

I think there were hundreds of a, b, and c's to be done under the Old Covenant but there is still faith that must be acted upon under the New Covenant today and God will still do x,y, and z.


I'm not sure what the x, y and z's are? We are promised suffering. But I am referring to the Jews receiving blessings of a material nature and protection of a divine sort for keeping the Law. We don't have any such assurances, except that "all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted." (2 Timothy 3:12)

The parallel account in Luke does specify holy spirit it is true.

Keying off on Paidion's thought; I would proffer a third option for that account in Acts. Just as certain actions in the OT are recorded, but do not necessarily have God's blessing, who's to say that Peter didn't misuse his divinely given power and authority in this case? Moses brought water from the crag, but it was held against him. I am sure if I thought about it long enough, I could come up with a few men of faith that acted a bit petulantly (wouldn't have to read much of Samson's life, for example) but that doesn't mean it met with God's approval. A possibility anyway.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by Homer » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:03 pm

Hi Brenden,
I'm not sure what the x, y and z's are?
I think there are imperatives in the New Covenant with promises attached; some examples off the top of my head:

Acts 2:38 (NASB)

38. Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 2:10 (NASB)

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Implied is that we can have no confidence the promise will be fulfilled absent the obedience.

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: Calvinism is Strange Indeed

Post by psimmond » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:38 pm

Kind of getting off topic but I was thinking about what Brenden said--about people misusing their power--and it seems to me the power Peter had wasn't his power; it was God's power. I don't think Moses misused his power either because I don't think he had any power. It was God's idea to bring water out of the rock, not Moses's. Moses didn't follow directions, but God still did what he wanted to do.

I can't think of anyone who was able to misuse God's power to do miracles that went against what God wanted. I suppose you could argue that the people who will stand before the Lord on judgment day and say, "Didn't we cast out demons in your name?" might, but I don't think the text makes it clear that they actually did miracles. (It seems when Sampson did the miraculous, it was only after the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and it seems that God was using Sampson to accomplish his purpose, not vice versa.)
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”