The possibility of Omniscience and Free Will

[kenblogton]

The Classic Theism proof text of God's Omniscience is Psalms 139:16 "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." The difficulty for Classic Theism which arises from this verse as plainly understood is that it eliminates the possibility of Humankind's Free Will.
The Open Theism view allows multiple possibilities as previously explained by mattrose
"“John Sanders "God's knowledge of the future contains knowledge of what God has decided to bring about unilaterally, knowledge of possibilities, and those events which are determined to occur... God is not caught off guard." (From "Perspectives on the Doctrine of God" page 199)
Greg Boyd "The only reality that exists for God to know concerning our future action is the possible directions we may take." (From his book which is literally titled "God of the Possible" page 66).
Clark Pinnock "God knows all the possibilities and is, therefore, never caught off-guard." ("Most Moved Mover" page 103)”"
As John Sanders further explains on his Open Theism website, "However, in our view God decided to create beings with indeterministic freedom which implies that God chose to create a universe in which the future is not entirely knowable, even for God."
The difficulty for Open Theism which arises from Sanders' viewpoint is that it eliminates God's Omniscience.

It would appear we can have Omniscience or Free Will, but not both.
With Classic Theism, we have Omniscience because God knows the one possible choice we'll make at each decision point in our lives, but this eliminates Free Will.
With Open Theism, we have Free Will because God does not know what choice we'll make at each decision point in our lives, but this eliminates Omniscience.
Classic Theism has one known possibility per decision point and Open Theism has many unknown possibilities per decision point.
A third option, which I call Multiple Life Path Omniscience from what might be termed an Open Classic Theism perspective, is that God knows all the many possibilities per decision point, but not which one will be chosen. This preserves both Omniscience and Free Will.
kenblogton

[steve7150]

A third option, which I call Multiple Life Path Omniscience from a NeoClassic Theism perspective, is that God knows all the many possibilities per decision point, but not which one will be chosen. This preserves both Omniscience and Free Will.
kenblogton











This is how i would have defined Open Theism. As far as i know Open Theists believe God is omniscient but that the future is not defined yet so that it is non existent and can not be known in the present.

[kenblogton]

Reply to steve7150
This is how i would have defined Open Theism. As far as i know Open Theists believe God is omniscient but that the future is not defined yet so that it is non existent and can not be known in the present.
I say God does know all the possible futures because He has defined them prior to the Big Bang; Open Theism says He does not know them because they are not defined..
kenblogton

[Paidion]

The difficulty for Open Theism which arises from Sanders' viewpoint is that it eliminates God's Omniscience.

On the contrary, Open Theism doesn't eliminate God's Omniscience. It merely reduces the domain of what it knowable. I know of no Open Theist who doubts God's omniscience.

The future doesn't exist, and therefore there is nothing to know. God cannot know that there is a pink elephant in your bedroom, simply because there is no such entity in your bedroom.

Sentences which appear to be statements about the future, and are in statement form, are actually either predictions or statements of intention. For example, "The Winnipeg Jets will win the tournament" is not a statement about the future, but a prediction. It actually means, "I predict that the Winnipeg Jets will win the tournament."
"I will go to Chicago next week" is not a statement about the future, but a statement of intention. It actually means, "I intend to go to Chicago next week."

I say God does know all the possible futures because He has defined them prior to the Big Bang; Open Theism says He does not know them because they are not defined..

I am not aware of ANY open theist who says that God does not know all possible futures. Their claim is that any act brought about by a free-will agent cannot be known prior to the act.

[mattrose]

I agree with the above posters. I still cannot grasp the distinction b/w what actual open theists say and what you are calling the multiple-life-path view.

You ended with:

God knows all the many possibilities per decision point, but not which one will be chosen

That is a statement totally acceptable to the open theist position as I understand it and as Pinnock, Sanders, & Boyd articulate.

[kenblogton]

Reply to Paidion & mattrose
On the contrary, Open Theism doesn't eliminate God's Omniscience. It merely reduces the domain of what it knowable. I know of no Open Theist who doubts God's omniscience. The open theists' claim is that any act brought about by a free-will agent cannot be known prior to the act.
So Open Theism maintains God only knows what is knowable, which includes none of the choices of his free-will creatures. Therefore, God does not know everything!!!!!!!!!!!!
Multiple Life Path Omniscience maintains that everything is knowable to God, including all the possible acts of His free-will creatures.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Reply to Paidion & mattrose
On the contrary, Open Theism doesn't eliminate God's Omniscience. It merely reduces the domain of what it knowable. I know of no Open Theist who doubts God's omniscience. The open theists' claim is that any act brought about by a free-will agent cannot be known prior to the act.
So Open Theism maintains God only knows what is knowable, which includes none of the choices of his free-will creatures. Therefore, God does not know everything!!!!!!!!!!!!
Multiple Life Path Omniscience maintains that everything is knowable to God, including all the possible acts of His free-will creatures.
kenblogton

Ken,

I think you are simply misunderstanding what we are saying. I'll try again.

Open theists believe that God knows everything. This includes all facts about the past and present. It also includes all future possibilities. In open theism, God knows all the possible acts of His free-will creatures, just not which specific decision they will make in such cases. There is no discernible difference b/w open theism and your view in this regard.

What you are actually objecting to, in my opinion, is process theology. In process theology, as I understand it, God doesn't know all future possibilities.

[kenblogton]

Reply to mattrose
I agree with the above posters. I still cannot grasp the distinction b/w what actual open theists say and what you are calling the multiple-life-path view.
I think you are simply misunderstanding what we are saying. I'll try again.
Open theists believe that God knows everything. This includes all facts about the past and present. It also includes all future possibilities. In open theism, God knows all the possible acts of His free-will creatures, just not which specific decision they will make in such cases. There is no discernible difference b/w open theism and your view in this regard.

Paidion, an Open Theist, states "The future doesn't exist, and therefore there is nothing to know."
John Sanders, an Open Theist, states "However, in our view God decided to create beings with indeterministic freedom which implies that God chose to create a universe in which the future is not entirely knowable, even for God."
So here are 2 Open Theists, one who says because the future does not exist, God can not know it, and the other who says God does not entirely know the future. If God does not know all, then God is not Omniscient!
Multiple Life Path Omniscience says God knows the future and all the possibilities it contains.
kenblogton

[mattrose]

Paidion, an Open Theist, states "The future doesn't exist, and therefore there is nothing to know."
John Sanders, an Open Theist, states "However, in our view God decided to create beings with indeterministic freedom which implies that God chose to create a universe in which the future is not entirely knowable, even for God."
So here are 2 Open Theists, one who says because the future does not exist, God can not know it, and the other who says God does not entirely know the future. If God does not know all, then God is not Omniscient!
Multiple Life Path Omniscience says God knows the future and all the possibilities it contains.
kenblogton

You're just misunderstanding what they are saying.

When Paidion says God doesn't know the future, he is NOT saying that God doesn't know the possibilities. He IS saying that God doesn't know which future possibility will become a reality (in regards to possibilities dependent on free will creatures). This is exactly what you stated in your first post when you said, "God knows all the many possibilities per decision point, but not which one will be chosen." You and Paidion agree on this. If you don't think so, just ask him directly.

When John Sanders says God made a world in which the future is not entirely knowable, he is NOT implying that the future possibilities aren't knowable. He IS saying that God doesn't know exactly which future possibilities will be chosen. Again, this is exactly what you said in your original post.

Now, you did say something a bit different in your most recent post. Originally, you said, " God knows all the many possibilities per decision point, but not which one will be chosen." But in this post you concluded by saying, "God knows the future and all the possibilities it contains" which could easily be considered contradictory viewpoints. But I'm guessing you aren't meaning to contradict yourself. My guess is that you actually are an open theist insofar as you believe God knows all future possibilities, but not which possibility will come to pass insofar as they depend on the decisions of free agents.

In sum, I already provided you with direct quotes from all 3 well-known open theists proving that they DO believe that God knows all future possibilities. It doesn't make sense to pit the 2 John Sanders quotes against each other since they come from the same source. The only explanation I have for your continued insistence that your views are different from open theism is if you actually believe that all future possibilities tangibly exist in some real sense. In other words, you may be saying that a infinite (or nearly infinite) amount of futures actually exist (and by 'exist' I'm not sure what you could possibly mean) and that the only thing God doesn't know is which existing future become the actual present. If that is your view, I have to ask... in what sense to future possibilities actually, tangibly, really, exist? Do they exist in some other dimension? As a parallel universe?

[Homer]

Someone please explain how God can not know what I will FREELY chose to do tomorrow. I do not understand how his foreknowing would cause my decision to be made in the way I choose.

Christian apologist John Lennox (Oxford professor who holds doctorates in mathematics, science, and philosophy) recently remarked that scientists do not even know what time is.