Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

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Homer
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:30 pm

That changed when alcoholism threatened his marriage. He and his wife, Sheryl, attended a church with a "hellfire pastor." Cooper said he became a Christian "initially more out of the fear of God, rather than the love of God ... I did not want to go to hell." Interviewed for HM's March/April issue, Cooper views his faith as "an ongoing thing."


Wow, what a stunner. Someone converted by the fear of hell. The Universalists must be shocked. Well, maybe not. Seems the modern ones have recognized the utility of hell and included it in their repertoire.

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steve
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by steve » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:42 pm

Homer,

Were there once evangelical universalists who did not have hell in their repertoire? Just curious. I haven't found their writings, either in the early church, nor in the more modern movement.

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Homer
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:08 pm

Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you. You mention "evangelical" universalists; I may be mistaken, but aren't they a rather recent category of universalists? I thought they originated (or the designation, at least) with the publication of "The Evangelical Universalist" by Robin Parry? I am fairly well read but never heard the term before hearing it at this forum.

What I think I had in mind was a comment by Richard Bauckham, and perhaps similar statements by others:
Universalism also appears at the end of the seventeenth century among some of the German Pietists, and was again popularized in eighteenth-century England especially by the devotional writer William Law.
One very strong objection to universalism in these centuries was the deep-rooted belief that the threat of eternal torment was a necessary deterrent from immorality during this life. So weighty was this objection felt to be, that some who believed in universal salvation (or even in annihilation) held that this belief must retain an esoteric, secret doctrine for the few, while hell must continue to be preached as a deterrent for the masses. Even in the nineteenth century, where such esotericism was seen to be indefensible, universalists found it necessary to meet the objection by emphasizing as much as possible the severity and length of the torments which the wicked must endure before their eventual salvation.
Perhaps you have noticed some comments here by universalists that outdo anything you hear from most evangelicals regarding the severity of hell.

You wrote:
I haven't found their writings, either in the early church, nor in the more modern movement.
I did not realize there were "evangelical" universalists in the early church. Do you consider Origen an evangelical? He held some pretty wild ideas, or speculations. Perhaps I do not understand the term in the same way you do.

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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:18 pm

I did not realize there were "evangelical" universalists in the early church. Do you consider Origen an evangelical? He held some pretty wild ideas, or speculations. Perhaps I do not understand the term in the same way you do.

Homer







Doesn't Evangelical simply mean a bible believing person or is it just limited to traditional interpretations. I still am in awe at the belief that God wants people with him who are terrorized of eternal hell which really means they are terrorized of him. The bible claims our Heavenly Father loves us more then a human father. I must be missing something.

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psimmond
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by psimmond » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:03 am

I believe all evangelicals should be evangelistic, but I've heard some say they love the gospel but feel no sense of obligation to share it with others.

Regarding Alice Cooper, I'm not sure I agree with the statement made a few times in this thread that "God does all he can to save each person." Where does the Bible say this? Don't you think more people would be saved if every human had a Saul experience: Seeing Jesus, hearing his voice from heaven, being blinded and then having a vision that a certain man would lay hands on you and your sight would be restored? I think it's more accurate to say God does enough; his grace is sufficient so that all men are without excuse.

God could have angels write the gospel in the sky for all to see, but it seems he wants people to exercise faith--kind of like when he hid truth in parables so those who were really interested would have to seek him out later to say, "Explain this to us."
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

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steve
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by steve » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:46 am

Homer wrote:
I did not realize there were "evangelical" universalists in the early church. Do you consider Origen an evangelical? He held some pretty wild ideas, or speculations. Perhaps I do not understand the term in the same way you do.
Perhaps you are using the word evangelical to refer to some modern-day phenomenon. I consider anyone who believes in the supreme authority of scripture, who embraces the gospel (evangelion), and who follows Christ to be an evangelical. I don't know how we would define an evangelical, even today, if not by these distinctives. If we use some definition such as this, then, of course, I would regard Origen as an evangelical. In my lifetime, I am not sure I have met a man more faithful to Christ than was Origen.

All of the universalist writers I have encountered in my research would be regarded as evangelicals by this definition—at least as far as I can discern from their writings. They rely on nothing but the authority of scripture and on the biblical declarations of the gospel for their positions. Have you encountered Christian universalists who do not do so?

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Perry
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by Perry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 am

psimmond wrote:I believe all evangelicals should be evangelistic, but I've heard some say they love the gospel but feel no sense of obligation to share it with others.
What do you mean by "evangelistic"? I'm always willing to share my faith with anyone who is interested, but I don't feel the least inclination to walk up to a stranger, pull on his sleeve, and say, "Brother do you know the Lord?"

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RICHinCHRIST
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:32 pm

backwoodsman wrote: All it proves is that God works differently with each person, according to what He knows will be most effective or most helpful. Many have experienced the same instant healing as Cooper did, either before or after being saved, and many haven't.
I agree with this. When I look upon my own salvation, I believe I was sovereignly elected. There is no way that I chose Christ; He chose me. But I don't think the same thing happens with all people. God could very well give opportunities to all people in different ways. I don't see myself as necessarily more blessed than others either, because I know that I must endure to the end if I will be saved.

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psimmond
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by psimmond » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:04 pm

Hi Perry,
By "evangelistic" I do mean sharing the gospel, but I've never walked up to a complete stranger and said, "Brother, do you know the Lord?"

I have put together a dvd and a mixed audio cd that I sometimes give out to strangers (usually cashiers when I go shopping). But I'm still trying to figure out where and how evangelism fits into my beliefs; it seems to me that it should.

There was an interesting thread last year on this topic: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... lit=tracts

I just read a great book called "Coffee Shop Conversations: Making the Most of Spiritual Small Talk" by Dale and Jonalyn Fincher. It's about sharing in a natural non-pushy conversational way as it fits into conversations. I highly recommend this book.

I can't handle David Platt's approach--4.5 billion people are currently heading to hell. What are you doing about it? But I don't want to go to the other extreme where I say I don't have the gift of evangelism so therefore I'll say nothing.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

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Perry
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Re: Is Alice Cooper an argument for sovereign election?

Post by Perry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:40 pm

Thanks for the clarification psimmond.

Thanks also for the book reference. I don't want to side track this thread, but I'll just mention quickly that there's a book by Greg Koukl that you might also enjoy. In it, he discusses ideas for deliberately steering conversations to spiritual matters, but doing so in non-confrontational ways. It's called Tactics: A Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions.

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