If God is X, Y, or Z

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TK
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by TK » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:03 pm

People I know who seem to be the most intimate with the Lord know (or care) the least about theology, or so it would seem. They just love the Lord and love serving Him.

TK

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Homer
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:06 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
If you admit the possibility that Calvinism is correct, then how can you be convinced that it is wrong? I am convinced that the sum of 2 and 2 is 4. I see no possibility that the sum is 5. If you had said that you see more support for non-Calvinism than for Calvinism, I could make sense of that statement.
People who are charged with the crime of murder are brought to trial and face a jury of twelve of their peers. Upon being convinced by the evidence, beyond reasonable doubt, and with the agreement of all twelve jurors, the person may be convicted and sentenced to death. That is a very serious judgement to make. Yet we have read of several cases where DNA evidence later exonerated such convicted persons. Juries are not infallible and neither am I. And there are twelve people there, carefully and (we hope) with unbiased minds sifting the evidence, yet in some cases they are wrong. Likewise, even though I am convinced that Calvinism is incorrect about God, I realize there is a possibility that I am wrong.
In any case, do you have any scripture which indicates that you would be "in a heap of trouble" on judgment day if you hold an incorrect view of God? If this were the case, then I think over 99% of people will be "in a heap of trouble". Do you know anyone whose view of God's character is totally correct?
I have no way of knowing whether anyone has a totally correect view of God. I would not be surprised if many people do. And I do not think having a totally correct view of God is necessary. What concerns me is when I hear someone say, for example, that the God of the Calvinists (how they picture Him) is a monster that they could never believe in. It seems to me in that case, if the Calvinists are correct, the person(s) having said such is blaspheming God, and if they die in that state what can they say when they face God at judgement? Have they not judged God and found Him unworthy? A little humility is a wise thing, I think.
I find a quite different reason in scripture for being in "a heap of trouble" at the judgment.
Am I incorrect?
I am unable to answer; I do not know what you have found. Paul lists several reasons in Galatians 5:19-21, and there are many other reasons listed elsewhere.

May God bless you! Homer

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Homer
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Candlepower,

Very good post! That is worth saving.

As for avatars, I suppose I should have one but it probably not be an improvement over nothing :( .

God bless, Homer

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Homer
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Homer » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:09 pm

Hi Michelle,

You wrote:
Homer, are you simply calling for submission and humility before God which allows us to be open to His love, mercy, and justice no matter how He works those? If so, I'm with you. Are you saying that a person who confidently proclaims, "The God of "X"ism is a monster whom I cannot bow down before," is revealing a dangerous pride that might destroy him?" If so, I also agree and further believe that he is in danger of falling further from God right now, before the judgement day.


Yes and yes!
However, if you're simply saying being believing something to be true about God, which turns out not to be true, might keep you from eternal life, I don't agree.
No! Not meaning that at all.
I'm a bit unclear about what the "heap of trouble" on the judgement day is. If you reject Calvinism, for example, because you believe it presents God as an arbitrary tyrant, which is at odds with your view of God as a loving father, what trouble would you face on the judgement day if it turns out the Calvinists had it completely right?


I hope my reply to Paidion answered that. I think I haven't explained myself very well which is easy to do when you know exactly what you are trying to get across and the other person does not. As an example of what I am trying to say, I am not a charismatic, but I cringe when I hear someone say speaking in tongues is by the devil, which I have heard said by a person at work.
or would the precarious position on judgement day be that you would face eternity forced to worship God whom you find repugnant?
If I face Him on judgement day thinking He is repugnant, I do not expect to be in His presence more than the time it takes for Him to say "get out".
The verses I alluded to, Matthew 7:23 and Luke 13:27, also include the phrase "I never knew you," and "I tell you I do not know you," which seem to imply that those inside have some kind of relationship with Jesus since he seems to know them. However, you took backwoodsman to task when he talked about a relationship with the Lord. You've called for us "to submit to God as Lord and Saviour now, trusting that He is good, His judgements are right..." Doesn't submission carry with it some sort of notion of relationship with God, some kind of knowing God?
Yes it does, but would a relationship to Him as Father, Savior, and Lord pretty much encompass it? If Dan reads this, I apologize if he feels "taken to task". I simply ask for clarification as I find "personal relationship" to be ambiguous and Lord and Saviour much clearer. As Frank Viola has written concerning this, relationships are personal. Personal relationship sounds like a fishing buddy.

If God turns out to be as the Calvinists picture Him then praise His name for I am confident He can do no wrong, even though I may not understand it.

God bless, Homer

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backwoodsman
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by backwoodsman » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:51 pm

Homer wrote:You mentioned "knowing God on a personal relationship level". This is not biblical language.
Actually it is -- sort of. When one translates between two languages, one finds that some words have a direct one-to-one translation, and others require more explanation -- sometimes essentially an encyclopedia article -- to describe what the writer intended to communicate and what readers native to his language and culture would've understood. The English words "know," "knowledge," etc., are translated from several different Greek words that have different meanings that would've been understood by those original readers, but are lost in translation.

So that brings us to "knowing God on a personal relationship level." That would be ginosko (Strong's #1097), which Thayer and Robertson say means "acquainted" or "become acquainted with," as to know someone personally or be very familiar with. This is often the word where the English says "know God," "know him," etc., as in Eph 3:19; Phil 3:10; 1 John 2:3-5, 4:6-8, and many others in 1 John, as well as many more.

Contrast that with epignosis (Strong's #1922), which Thayer defines as "precise and correct knowledge," more the idea of knowing facts about someone or something rather than being acquainted with a person. This is frequently the word where the English says knowledge of God / the Lord / the truth, etc., as in 2 Peter 1:2 and many others.

There are other Greek words that are translated "know" or some variant, but these two form the basis of my statement that the New Testament encourages us both to know God personally, and to learn as much about him as we can (to phrase it a bit differently than I did before; but maybe that'll help clarify my meaning for some).
Charismatics, Baptists, Calvinists, various Arminians, Lutherans, Evangelical Universalists, and Catholics have various ideas about God that can not all be true and sometimes contradict each other. Do you believe any of them have any "wildly wrong" ideas about God?
Some more than others. But by "wildly wrong", I was thinking in the context of my understanding of your original question -- ideas that are so far from the truth that there's clearly a "different gospel" involved that doesn't bring salvation. Think Mormon, JW, etc.
If what you apppear to be saying is correct, then the best thinkers among these (and other) groups must not be making their relationship with and pursuit of knowledge of God a priority.
Perhaps. That would be consistent with something I've noticed in human nature: People tend to choose their belief system (or some part of it) without reference to facts or logic, then accept evidence which confirms that belief system and reject that which calls it into question. One might think Christians would be immune to such an obvious trap; but, sadly, that's not the case. Both the intellect and the spirit are essential to true Godly spirituality, but sometimes we sabotage our own spiritual walk by thinking too much and knowing God too little.
Do you see it as a matter of no concern when a person says "I could never believe in the God that the doctrines of 'X' group present"
It's a matter of concern because it's a distraction from simply following Jesus and letting him teach us what we need to know, and simply trusting him with the areas where the Bible isn't as black & white as some would like.

Something I missed in your original post, that may have shortened my answer considerably:
Wouldn't it be best to submit to God as Lord and Saviour now, trusting that He is good, His judgements are right, whether our "isms" are all correct or not? Regardless of whether He fits our idea of what He should be?
Yes.

Many Christians get so wrapped up in trying to figure out what men they should follow, that they forget to follow Jesus.

God bless,
Dan

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look2jesus
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by look2jesus » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:26 am

Greetings all,
Homer wrote:If I state that I could never accept God if He is like the Calvinist picture of Him, and it turns out they are correct, then I am in a heap of trouble it would seem. And people say similar things about various other beliefs Christians have.
Homer, I agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. I think people who would come to God with this kind of "I'm not going to believe in God unless He is the kind of God that I think He should be" attitude, are lacking the humility, and submission to God that He would require, no matter what kind of God He is. A person who thinks that way has already put himself, if not above God, at least on an equal par with Him and I would think that such a person would be in a heap of trouble.
Candlepower wrote:First. Thank you, L2J for the avatar compliment. If I were as handsome as you, I would have put up a photo of me. Here is an actual picture of me.
Thanks for the compliment...I'm just glad my wife considers that I'm handsome...I guess there's just no accounting for taste, is there? Also, you had my wife and I cracking up, we enjoyed the post.
You also wrote:Fourth. In introducing someone to Christ, I think it's probably better to avoid secondary, debatable issues. It is good for new disciples to be encouraged to compare Scripture with Scripture and to let God's Word and Spirit be their ultimate guide in doctrinal issues. Above all, encourage them to love God and their fellow man. All other laws hang on this.
I agree with this, so you must be right!
Paidion wrote:In any case, do you have any scripture which indicates that you would be "in a heap of trouble" on judgment day if you hold an incorrect view of God?
Paidion, In John 8:24, though it is disputed as to the "I am" statement there, Jesus said to the Jews, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."(NKJV) My understanding is that Jesus is referring to His Messiahship, or perhaps He is just saying that unless they believed that He was who He said He was, they would die in there sins. Though , I suppose it's possible Jesus was identifying Himself as "I am that I am" by His statement, "if you do not believe that I am". Whatever the case, it appears to me, that this scripture would indicate that someone might be in "a heap of trouble" if they hold an incorrect view of Jesus.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV

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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by steve7150 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:37 am

Homer, I agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. I think people who would come to God with this kind of "I'm not going to believe in God unless He is the kind of God that I think He should be" attitude, are lacking the humility, and submission to God that He would require, no matter what kind of God He is. A person who thinks that way has already put himself, if not above God, at least on an equal par with Him and I would think that such a person would be in a heap of trouble.





"No matter what kind of God He is" , so if Calvinism is true and God creates billions of people who have no alternative but to spend eternity in torment , whether it's flames or outer darkness, if i don't love God ,as my family, my friends, as many people who are better people then me suffer for eternity, if i can't or won't love God i'm not humble and i'm prideful.
I know on this forum the politically correct thing to say is "yes i'll love God no matter what he does", but i have to think about this. I have to think about it because it does'nt reconcile to mercy and justice and love. If you think this is prideful, i'm sorry and perhaps i am in a heapful of trouble.

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Homer
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Homer » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:44 am

Hi Steve,

IMO all will be judged according to how they respond to the light they have received, and it is around everyone, Romans 1. But that is just my opinion. I am confident God will do what is right; there is no injustice in Him.

God bless, Homer

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Paidion
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:58 pm

look2Jesus wrote:Homer, I agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. I think people who would come to God with this kind of "I'm not going to believe in God unless He is the kind of God that I think He should be" attitude, are lacking the humility, and submission to God that He would require, no matter what kind of God He is. A person who thinks that way has already put himself, if not above God, at least on an equal par with Him and I would think that such a person would be in a heap of trouble.
So you'd still be willing to serve God if He turns out to have the character that the Muslims ascribe to Him? One who commands His people to kill Christians and Jews, and who will award the killers with 70 virgins in the next life?

I think it's a moot point to speculate that God may turn out be as the Muslims perceive Him, or as the Calvinists perceive Him (electing certain people to go to heaven forever, and others (the majority) to go to hell forever). For He simply does not have the character perceived by either of these groups. Thus it is meaningless to ask whether we would believe in, or serve God if it turned as either of these groups perceive Him.
Paidion, In John 8:24, though it is disputed as to the "I am" statement there, Jesus said to the Jews, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins." ... Whatever the case, it appears to me, that this scripture would indicate that someone might be in "a heap of trouble" if they hold an incorrect view of Jesus.
It seems to me that Jesus was not saying that they would die in their sins simply because they had an incorrect view of Him, but that if they did not believe that He was the Messiah at all, then the consequence of that they would not become His disciples, and would therefore die in their sins. for His sacrificial death on their behalf would be ineffectual.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Candlepower
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Re: If God is X, Y, or Z

Post by Candlepower » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:57 pm

Homer

Posts: 666 :o
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm
This may be a little off the thread, and my anxiety may be an irrational remnant from my pre-preterist past, but Homer would you please enter one more post to put your total up to 667? Please forgive me, but I am a recovering Dispensationalist.

Candlepower

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