Actually, I've never been to hung up on this point. Could it be that it so important because Calvinist say it is? All I'm saying is that there is some mystery involved as to exactly how the atonement works. I'm not sure I need to figure it out.lee wrote:Steve and Homer, thanks for those thoughts. But, if God is omniscient, which I think we all agree on, then He chose to die needlessly for people He knew would reject Him. I think what is bothering me is the Calvinist idea of a 1 for 1 exchange between Jesus and the believer seemingly being the most "efficient" way of understanding the purpose of the death of Jesus. In other words, why would Jesus die for people He knew would reject Him anyway? His life is much more than a bronze serpent, although that parallel is enlightening.
Anyway, I certainly can see how Jesus could have died for only those whom He foreknew (the elect). This is basically the same idea of "limited atonement" that the Calvinist proposes. Or, I could see merit in a view that says Jesus died for all sins but if He is rejected the forgiveness is revoked. That would seem to be similar to what Jesus teaches here:
Mat 18:23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
Mat 18:27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!'
Mat 18:29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
Mat 18:30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
Mat 18:32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
Mat 18:33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
Mat 18:34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
Mat 18:35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
When Jesus said His heavenly Father will do this to each of us if we do not forgive seems to mean the forgiveness in Christ can be revoked. Why could this not also happen with all people? Their sins are forgiven even before birth. But if they reject the grace God has shown they have their forgiveness revoked and are handed over to the torturers.
I'm not sure how it all works.
