Can God know the Future?

[Suzana]

This is not a question of God's omniscience. Open theists believe that God knows all things.
This is a question about reality. Does the future exist NOW? No, it doesn't. So there's nothing to know.

Since the future doesn't exist, and is therefore unknowable, no one knows it, including God.

I am still curious (not to say baffled) about Open Theism. I would like to try to understand what the position would be regarding the future looking at it from God’s point of view, about things that are not dependant on anyone else’s free-will choices.

So, what is the belief regarding for example the following verses, especially the emphasised portions about the future – do any of these statements have present truth value?

Isa 46:9-11 (NASB)
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like Me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned {it, surely} I will do it.

Acts 17:31 (NASB)
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Since you (Paidion) say that the future doesn’t exist, and there is therefore nothing to know, does that mean that God doesn’t and cannot now know that there really is an appointed day?
Is there really no present truth value (even for God) in God’s statement that He WILL accomplish all His good pleasure?

Thanks,

[Paidion]

Thank you Homer and Suzana for your recent questions.

I haven't even been going to the forum for the past day and a half. For I have been studying a link which Dean gave me in response to my thread "Proof that the Holy Spirit is Personal". I found the link he provided quite fascinating, and so I have been studying it ever since. I almost have my response prepared.

Notwithstanding, I look forward to answering your questions concerning my open theist stance, and hope to find the time to do that soon.

I am what one might call an "ultra open theist", for I believe that none of the future can be known, whereas the classic open theist believes that only some of the future is open and cannot be known, but the rest is settled and thus can be known. This is the position of Gregory Boyd who wrote the book God of the Possible.

[dean198]

I have not looked into open theism at all, but my first response would be, how is it that in the book of Revelation, God foreknows that some won't repent:

9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

a verse Paidion brought up in the first page of this thread gave a scripture which suggested that God was surprised that some didn't repent, and so I'm left not sure what to think, and just keeping an open mind on it.

[Paidion]

Can a statement about something that is predicted will occur next week have "false value" today?

When someone utters the sentence "The Montreal Canadians will win the hockey game next week", they are not uttering a statement (statements are either true or false). But the sentence has the form of a statement (I call such sentences "metastatements") . In reality the person is not making a statement at all; he is making a prediction. His sentence really means, "I predict that the Montreal Canadians will win the hockey game next week." So, the sentence in red is a statement, and it is likely true (unless he is lying), since the person uttering it, is indeed predicting that the Montreal Canadians will win. However, the metastatement has no truth value.

If I made a statement, then it is either true or false, for all statements are either true or false.

And you contradict yourself here, for an assertion is a statement regardless of whether it is factual or not.

Could you be a bit more clear in your assertion here? I fail to see where I have contradicted myself. I have continually affirmed that "statements" are sentences with truth value. The word "statement" is so defined in formal logic.

On the other hand, metastatements concerning future events are sentences in statement form, but they are not statements. They may express [1] predictions as in the example concerning the Montreal Canadians, or the may express [2] intent.

An example of the latter:

"I will visit my doctor next week" is a metastatement which REALLY means "I intend to visit my doctor next week." The latter statement has truth value. If I utter the sentence it is probably TRUE that I have this intention. On the other hand, the metastatement has no truth value.

I don't see the relevance of Humpty Dumpty's assertion, and so cannot comment on it.

[Paidion]

Thank you for your thoughtful questions, Suzana.

I am still curious (not to say baffled) about Open Theism. I would like to try to understand what the position would be regarding the future looking at it from God’s point of view, about things that are not dependant on anyone else’s free-will choices.

So, what is the belief regarding for example the following verses, especially the emphasised portions about the future – do any of these statements have present truth value?

Most open theists, e.g. Gregory Boyd, would say that the things that God has stated which He intends to do are settled, and cannot be otherwise. The open future consists only of those things which relate to choices of free will agents. But as I said, I would be considered an ultra open theist. I don't think any of the future is settled.

I think it is possible that God may change His mind about His intentions. As you know, that has actually happened a number of times. One is the prophecy through Jonah. The book of Jonah clearly states that God had intended to bring disaster upon Ninevah in 40 days, but that He changed His mind and didn't do it.

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10

There are several other cases recorded in the Bible where God did not carry out His intentions.

Isa 46:9-11 (NASB)
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like Me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

God has plans and purposes. He can declare his plans from beginning to end. That is not the same as knowing the future. Even a house designer can declare his plan for building a house
from beginning to end, or "declare the end from the beginning" (as it was expressed in Isaiah's day).

God states that He will accomplish His good pleasure. This is a statement of His intention. All the free will agents in the universe could not thrwart Him from carrying out His intention. However, He Himself, being a free will agent, could change His mind --- even as He has in the past.

Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned {it, surely} I will do it.

Again, God expresses His intention. He planned it, and intended to do it --- and if God plans something and intends to do it, it will come to pass unless He changes His mind.

Acts 17:31 (NASB)
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Even people can appoint a day. My doctor appointed a day for me to see him. But that doesn't make the appointment inevitable. You may say, "It's different with God! After all, He is God!". True! No one can thwart Him. You don't expect, and I don't expect God to change His m ind about judging the world through Christ. But is it possible for Him to change His mind about it? If we say it is impossible, then are we not saying He is bound by His own declarations? What then becomes of His free will?

Since you (Paidion) say that the future doesn’t exist, and there is therefore nothing to know, does that mean that God doesn’t and cannot now know that there really is an appointed day?

He has appointed such a day, and God knows that He has appointed such a day. Yet, such a day does not yet exist. Is it, or is it not possible for God to change His mind and appoint a different day?

Is there really no present truth value (even for God) in God’s statement that He WILL accomplish all His good pleasure?

He has given us the assurance of His intention. That gives us great faith that He will carry out His intention, for we trust Him. But it is still His prerogative to change His mind about anything. After all, He is God!

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

Even people can appoint a day. My doctor appointed a day for me to see him. But that doesn't make the appointment inevitable. You may say, "It's different with God! After all, He is God!". True! No one can thwart Him. You don't expect, and I don't expect God to change His m ind about judging the world through Christ. But is it possible for Him to change His mind about it? If we say it is impossible, then are we not saying He is bound by His own declarations? What then becomes of His free will?

And:

He has given us the assurance of His intention. That gives us great faith that He will carry
out His intention, for we trust Him. But it is still His prerogative to change His mind about anything. After all, He is God!

And Jesus said:

Mark 16:16 (New King James Version)
16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Which, according to what you said, we can only hope will come to pass because God may change His mind!

I believe God can know that I will raise my hand at 9AM on Monday morning and that it will be a free choice of mine that I will do so. When 9AM arrives I will raise my hand, I will not refrain from doing so, and it will be of my own free-will that I do so. What's more, God also knows all contingencies that might possibly be involved and that none of them can or will interfere with my raising my hand.

[Paidion]

And Jesus said:

Mark 16:16 (New King James Version)
16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Which, according to what you said, we can only hope will come to pass because God may change His mind!

Or the believing baptized person may change his mind, e.g. Simon the magician. He believed and was baptized, but he went back to proclaiming himself to be God. History records that near the end of his life, he went around with a woman whom he claimed to have begotten. After his death, a Roman official erected a statue to his honour with the inscription, "To the great God, Simon".

So, it does not appear to be always the case that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. If Jesus made this statement (there is evidence that Mark 16:9 to the end was a later addition), it was made as a general statement to show that salvation was the consequence of believing and being baptized ---- not a positive statement about the individual future of any particular person.

God is unlikely to change His mind about a matter which He has established. Even in human matters --- Suppose a teacher, for example, says to his pupils, "If you all complete you work before the last recess, we will all go outside and play ball until the school day is over." So the pupils all finish their work before the last recess. Is it likely that the teacher will change his mind and make them continue working inside until school is over?

[Suzana]

Even people can appoint a day. My doctor appointed a day for me to see him. But that doesn't make the appointment inevitable. You may say, "It's different with God! After all, He is God!". True! No one can thwart Him. You don't expect, and I don't expect God to change His m ind about judging the world through Christ. But is it possible for Him to change His mind about it? If we say it is impossible, then are we not saying He is bound by His own declarations? What then becomes of His free will?

Are you saying God’s ‘free will’ takes precedence or has more importance than His other attributes, like Truth, & keeping His word?

As you know Paidion, I don’t agree with your assessment of the Jonah/Nineveh account. My understanding is that God will only ‘change His mind’ about those decrees or statements of His intent which were conditional to start with.

Num 23:5
And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak.
Num 23:19
God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

He has given us the assurance of His intention. That gives us great faith that He will carry out His intention, for we trust Him. But it is still His prerogative to change His mind about anything. After all, He is God!

Why do we trust Him? On, what basis, if not for the fact that He has revealed His character to be one that is worthy to be trusted – and that He will keep His promises! If I can’t know that God’s assurances have true value right now, what would be the point of God giving out any promises at all?

Most open theists, e.g. Gregory Boyd, would say that the things that God has stated which He intends to do are settled, and cannot be otherwise. The open future consists only of those things which relate to choices of free will agents. But as I said, I would be considered an ultra open theist. I don't think any of the future is settled.

I think if I were ever to embrace Open Theism, it would have to be the Greg Boyd variety.

[dean198]

Can anyone tell me how verses like this fit into open theism - they are about the future and yet tell us that the people involved won't repent:

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

[Douglas]

I have to say Paidion, I have never considered "open theism" to be in the right direction of truth, but after reading this thread and understanding how you interpret certain passages in a particular light, I am pondering it. I am going to study this topic a bit more and think about it for a while. Thanks for your responses.