Can God know the Future?

[RV]

Why couldn't He?

I'm not that familar with Open Theism, so I don't know.

I've heard it said that God is very good at guessing. That's more than good at guessing!

RV

[Paidion]

This is not a question of God's omniscience. Open theists believe that God knows all things.
This is a question about reality. Does the future exist NOW? No, it doesn't. So there's nothing to know.

Sentences about the future appear to be statements which are either true or false. Someone may say, "I will raise my hand at 7 P.M". But this is not a logical statement (a statement as defined in formal logic). Rather it is a statement of intention. It could be reworded, "I intend to raise my hand at 7 P.M.." The reworded sentence is true, if that is the speaker's intention.

But the sentence "I will raise my hand at 7 P.M." has no present truth value. It is neither true nor false. If it were NOW true, then I would be unable to refrain from raising my hand at 7 P.M. If it were NOW false, I would be unable to raise my hand at 7 P.M. In each case, there would be something I could not do. So what happens to my free will?

Since the future doesn't exist, and is therefore unknowable, no one knows it, including God.
This is not merely a philosophical argument. The scripture also bears out that what God expected to happen didn't, in fact, happen. Here is one example:


The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7 ESV

Israel, after having done all this, did not return to Him as He had expected she would. Does this mean that God was wrong? No. God knows the hearts of all people. Knowing their hearts and their ways, and reading their minds, it appeared that Israel would return to Him. But everyone as the ability to choose. In spite of what God knew about the Israelites, they chose not to return to Him.

[RV]

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7 ESV

Israel, after having done all this, did not return to Him as He had expected she would. Does this mean that God was wrong? No. God knows the hearts of all people. Knowing their hearts and their ways, and reading their minds, it appeared that Israel would return to Him. But everyone as the ability to choose. In spite of what God knew about the Israelites, they chose not to return to Him.

Interesting...

So... how are we to be certain that the future that probably doesn't exist, is not able to be seen by God?

Because, just as well (and I won't do it because I'm sure you're well aware of them) there are many scriptures to show just He did know the future.



If you just want to use logic, you must have absolute knowlege to make this statement:

Does the future exist NOW? No, it doesn't. So there's nothing to know.

[Paidion]

Because, just as well (and I won't do it because I'm sure you're well aware of them) there are many scriptures to show just He did know the future.

No. I am not aware of any of them.

I have heard this claim made before, and I have yet to see even one scripture brought forth which shows that He KNOWS the future. Rather, what people have done is to quote scriptures where Jesus or His Father made predictions about the future, and those predictions came true. Such quotations do not show that God KNOWS the future.

Another one I've heard is the statement quoted out of context that God "knows the end from the beginning," and then assuming that this means that God knows everything which everyone will ever do. But the context makes clear that this statement refers to God knowing the end from the beginning OF HIS PLAN. Since He has the power to carry out His plans, He is able to declare them before they happen. Even we can do that concerning our own plans (to a limited degree).

[RND]

Jesus was called "the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world." Apparently, someone knew enough about a future that had not happened as of yet to declare exactly what would happen to Jesus before the world was formed.

[Sean]

Because, just as well (and I won't do it because I'm sure you're well aware of them) there are many scriptures to show just He did know the future.

No. I am not aware of any of them.

I have heard this claim made before, and I have yet to see even one scripture brought forth which shows that He KNOWS the future. Rather, what people have done is to quote scriptures where Jesus or His Father made predictions about the future, and those predictions came true. Such quotations do not show that God KNOWS the future.

Another one I've heard is the statement quoted out of context that God "knows the end from the beginning," and then assuming that this means that God knows everything which everyone will ever do. But the context makes clear that this statement refers to God knowing the end from the beginning OF HIS PLAN. Since He has the power to carry out His plans, He is able to declare them before they happen. Even we can do that concerning our own plans (to a limited degree).

Can you explain how God could prophesy this, if He does not know the future?

1 Kings 13:1 And behold, a man of God went from Judah to Bethel by the word of the LORD, and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense. Then he cried out against the altar by the word of the LORD, and said, "O altar, altar! Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, a child, Josiah by name, shall be born to the house of David; and on you he shall sacrifice the priests of the high places who burn incense on you, and men's bones shall be burned on you.' " And he gave a sign the same day, saying, "This is the sign which the LORD has spoken: Surely the altar shall split apart, and the ashes on it shall be poured out."

The fulfillment of this is recorded in 2 Kings 23. Part of it is here:

2Ki 23:16 As Josiah turned, he saw the tombs that [were] there on the mountain. And he sent and took the bones out of the tombs and burned [them] on the altar, and defiled it according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words.

How did God prophesy not only the name of this man but what he would do if it is in fact the case that God does allow free will and does not know the future? No amount of "guessing" would seem to have given God the ability to know the name and course of action of this particular indiviudal before he was even born.

[Paidion]

Jesus was called "the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world." Apparently, someone knew enough about a future that had not happened as of yet to declare exactly what would happen to Jesus before the world was formed.

First I must understand correctly what you are saying. Your second sentence seems ambiguous. Are you saying:

1. Someone declared that Jesus would be slain before the world was formed? (lamb slain from the foundation of the world)

OR

2. Before the world was formed, Someone declared that Jesus would be slain? (when He was actually crucified)

[Paidion]

Can you explain how God could prophesy this, if He does not know the future?

1 Kings 13:1 And behold, a man of God went from Judah to Bethel by the word of the LORD, and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense. Then he cried out against the altar by the word of the LORD, and said, "O altar, altar! Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, a child, Josiah by name, shall be born to the house of David; and on you he shall sacrifice the priests of the high places who burn incense on you, and men's bones shall be burned on you.' " And he gave a sign the same day, saying, "This is the sign which the LORD has spoken: Surely the altar shall split apart, and the ashes on it shall be poured out."

The fulfillment of this is recorded in 2 Kings 23. Part of it is here:

2Ki 23:16 As Josiah turned, he saw the tombs that [were] there on the mountain. And he sent and took the bones out of the tombs and burned [them] on the altar, and defiled it according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words.

How did God prophesy not only the name of this man but what he would do if it is in fact the case that God does allow free will and does not know the future? No amount of "guessing" would seem to have given God the ability to know the name and course of action of this particular indiviudal before he was even born.

Why assume it was God looking into the future and knowing what would happen? Consider the following analogy:

George has a talk with his son Sam:
"Sam, our cat Samantha is going to have kittens. We will give them all away except one kitten 'Whiskers'. That will be your kitten, Sam. It will be our mouser, and will live in an insulated box during the winter."

Is George "looking into the future" and knowing exactly what will happen? Well, Samantha had kittens, and one was kept for Sam. Sam remembered his father's words and named the kitten "Whiskers". As the kitten grew older, it caught and killed mice. Sam, who remembered what his father had said, made an insulated box to keep the cat warm in winter.

George had a plan for keeping a single kitten, and that plan was fulfilled.

Could not God have had a plan and spoken as He did? Could not Josiah's parents have known about the prophecy and named their child "Josiah"? Could not Josiah have been raised to follow Yahweh's instructions, so that when he became king, he destroyed the high places? He knew that someone named "Josiah" was in the prophecy and he knowingly fulfilled its terms, by burning the bones, etc.

God wanted these things to happen, and He had a hand in it in seeing that they did, in fact, happen. That's a far cry from the impossibility of knowing people's choices before they happen.

[TK]

good point, paidion, and it appears that jesus intentionally fulfilled some prophecies about him.

TK

[RND]

Jesus was called "the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world." Apparently, someone knew enough about a future that had not happened as of yet to declare exactly what would happen to Jesus before the world was formed.

First I must understand correctly what you are saying. Your second sentence seems ambiguous. Are you saying:

1. Someone declared that Jesus would be slain before the world was formed? (lamb slain from the foundation of the world)

OR

2. Before the world was formed, Someone declared that Jesus would be slain? (when He was actually crucified)

To me the obvious answer would be both. Before Satan was even thinking about rebellion in the courts of heaven the plan of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus was already set in motion.

Many prophets, as well as God Himself, declared the truth of this and the future redemption of mankind through the sacrifice of God's lamb by either word, or action in the symbolism of the sanctuary service.

For example, when Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham said, "God would provide His own sacrifice" before it was even declared to Abraham by God. This was recounted by Moses roughly 1,500 years before God actually provided His own sacrifice. That indicates to be that God "knew" what He would be doing later.

God clearly knew that sin was a possibility when He created both His heavenly beings and mankind with free will. And just as predictably God had a plan "just in case."