Can God know the Future?

[Suzana]

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (John 16:13)

Help me out here Paidion, how does is the Spirit going to tell them things (or disclose) to come if the future is not able to be know?

So is the gift of prophecy actually the gift of guessing?

No, it is a gift of prediction.
…. God's predictions are based on His complete knowledge of all facts including people's thoughts.
…. I have presented a counter-example in which God's prediction did not come true. That in itself is sufficient (Indeed there are several others as well).

If God knows the future, then His predictions would always become reality.

Paidion, was it then wise, or even just of God to require 100% accuracy of His prophets, (and anything short of that would mean being stoned to death), if the outcome of the prophecy, or 'prediction' was uncertain?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (KJV) 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Sorry, I know I’ve raised this point before, but I can’t remember or find your response to it (it may have been in some old un-recovered post).

[RV]

GREAT POINT Suzana!

Never thought about that, but I'd like to know as well.

[RV]

Hi Paidion,

Why haven't you answered the question? I'm very interested. See Suzana's question.

[Paidion]

RV, I have not answered the question because I didn't see it until now.

My answer is simply that I have no answer. So what do you suggest? Should I begin to believe that the predictions of all of God's true prophets never fail? I would have to negate scripture in order to take that stance.

Consider the following prophecies which DID NOT come true:

Case 1. Jonah's prophecy:

"Yet 40 days and Ninevah shall be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4).

The prophecy did not come true. Ninevah was not overthrown in 40 days. Now some try to wriggle out of this by saying that the prophecy was conditional and REALLY meant, "If you Ninevites do not repent, Ninevah shall be overthrown in 40 days." However, this cannot be the case. For the text indicates that God had intended to bring about this calamity, but when the Ninevites turned from their evil ways, He was sorry that He said He would bring this upon them, and didn't do it.

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NRSV

You notice the NRSV says God "changed his mind". Most translations say that He "relented". But the Hebrew word actually means that He was sorry. But which of the meanings is correct is not crucial The fact is that God had said through Jonah that He would overthrow Ninevah in 40 days, and He did not do it. The prophecy did not come true. So if we accept the quote from Deuteronomy 18 as a valid test to distinguish false prophets from true, then we shall have to conclude that Jonah was a false prophet, and that he should have been stoned to death.

This one case is sufficient to show that God did not know that the Ninevites would repent. For if He had known, then He lied in saying through Jonah, that Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days.

I'll relate one more case for now:

Case 2. Micah's prophecy

Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest. Micah 3:12

Micah's prophecy did not come true. Perhaps we would never have known that except for what is written in Jeremiah:

"Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah; and he spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus the LORD of hosts has said, "Zion will be plowed as a field, And Jerusalem will become ruins, And the mountain of the house as the high places of a forest."’

"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? Jeremiah 26:18,19 NASB

So Micah's prophecy did not come true. Was he, therefore, a false prophet? If we apply the test from Deuteronomy 18, we shall have to conclude that he was, and condemn him to death by stoning.

[Suzana]

Hi Paidion,

(I thought you probably had not seen my post at the time, then I forgot about it too).

"Yet 40 days and Ninevah shall be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4).

Now some try to wriggle out of this by saying that the prophecy was conditional and REALLY meant, "If you Ninevites do not repent, Ninevah shall be overthrown in 40 days."

I don't think it’s wriggling out of something, to try & reconcile seeming contradictions in scripture (eg. Deuteronomy and Jonah) in a way that they both make sense.

1:2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me.”
3:1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.”

In considering the whole book of Jonah, rather than the meaning of one specific word, (and in light of God’s warnings to Israel and his dealings with people in the rest of scripture), it seems perfectly reasonable to understand that God was asking Jonah to proclaim God’s intent (with the implication being that He might re-assess the situation according to their response). Why else would God send a prophet to preach to them, and specify a time frame – 40 days, which would give them a chance to repent if they chose to?
Jonah himself seems to have understood this, since he complained to God after the Ninevites repented:
“Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

In this situation Jonah could have been stoned as a false prophet if he made this proclamation, the Ninevites didn’t repent, 40 days passed, and God did nothing.

In contrast, when God made the decision to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, though He told Abraham about His intention, (and allowed Abraham to do some bargaining), God did not send anyone with a proclamation to preach in those cities, just instructed Lot to get out.

I’m trying to look at this from an open Theism view – surely if God didn’t know Nineveh would repent, and told Jonah to say what he did (as a prediction rather than a warning), wouldn't this be less than flattering to God's predictive powers in this instance?

[Paidion]

In considering the whole book of Jonah, rather than the meaning of one specific word, (and in light of God’s warnings to Israel and his dealings with people in the rest of scripture), it seems perfectly reasonable to understand that God was asking Jonah to proclaim God’s intent (with the implication being that He might re-assess the situation according to their response). Why else would God send a prophet to preach to them, and specify a time frame – 40 days, which would give them a chance to repent if they chose to?
Jonah himself seems to have understood this, since he complained to God after the Ninevites repented:
“Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.

If that had been God's plan all along He wouldn't have been SORRY about having predicted the calamity.

If Jonah had understood that God would "give them a chance to repent", why would he have sat outside the city and have waited for its destruction? And why would he have been exceedingly displeased and very angry when God didn't destroy it as He said He would? (Jonah 4:1)

[Suzana]

If that had been God's plan all along He wouldn't have been SORRY about having predicted the calamity.

If Jonah had understood that God would "give them a chance to repent", why would he have sat outside the city and have waited for its destruction? And why would he have been exceedingly displeased and very angry when God didn't destroy it as He said He would? (Jonah 4:1)

In my reading of the verse, the conveyed meaning is not that God was sorry about what He had said, but that He turned away* from fulfilling the threatened disaster.

3:9 (NKJV) Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?
3:10 (YLT) And God seeth their works, that they have turned back from their evil way, and God repenteth of the evil that He spake of doing to them, and he hath not done it .

Also it doesn’t say that Jonah waited for the city’s destruction, but that he waited to see what would happen – (hoping against hope?) - He obviously really wanted the Ninevites (?enemies of Israel) to be destroyed. Otherwise, how DO you explain these verses? Why did he want to die?


“Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”
4 Then the LORD said, “Is it right for you to be angry?”
5 So Jonah went out of the city and sat on the east side of the city. There he made himself a shelter and sat under it in the shade, till he might see what would become of the city.

*[Jon 3:10 And God430 saw7200 (853) their works,4639 that3588 they turned7725 from their evil7451 way;4480, 1870 and God430 repented5162 of5921 the evil,7451 that834 he had said1696 that he would do6213 unto them; and he did6213 it not.3808

H5162
nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).](Strong's)

[Paidion]

Suzana, consider the Online Bible's definition of the Hebrew word (Strongs 5162)

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
1b) (Piel) to comfort, console
1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to be sorry, have compassion
1d2) to rue, repent of
1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
1d4) to ease oneself

I haven't studied Hebrew, but it seems to me that the primary meaning of the word is "to be sorry".

However, I have studied Greek. The translators of the Septuagint (3rd century B.C.) chose to translate the Hebrew word as "μετανοεω". This Greek word means "to have a change of mind".
If this were the intent of the author, then God changed His mind about the disaster that He said He would bring upon the Ninevites. If He had known all along that the Ninevites would repent, why would He change His mind about anything?

[Suzana]

For the text indicates that God had intended to bring about this calamity, but when the Ninevites turned from their evil ways, He was sorry that He said He would bring this upon them, and didn't do it.
..............................
I haven't studied Hebrew, but it seems to me that the primary meaning of the word is "to be sorry".

However, I have studied Greek. The translators of the Septuagint (3rd century B.C.) chose to translate the Hebrew word as "μετανοεω". This Greek word means "to have a change of mind".
If this were the intent of the author, then God changed His mind about the disaster that He said He would bring upon the Ninevites. If He had known all along that the Ninevites would repent, why would He change His mind about anything?

Jeremiah 18:7-11 (KJV) 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

It’s the same word (underlined, Strongs 5162) which is also used here. I don’t think the intended meaning here is that God will be sorry that He had thought to do them evil, but rather that He would refrain from carrying out what He threatened them with, if they change their ways.

And I think that is exactly what happened with Nineveh. God didn’t change His mind because the Ninevites’ response took Him by surprise, but because that was His intent and consistent with His ways, as per His statements in Jeremiah.

I stand by what I said before – my understanding is still that God sent Jonah to warn them of His intended judgement which would result if they kept heading in the direction they were going, with a view to having them repent of their evil ways.
I don’t think that’s inconsistent with God knowing beforehand that they would in fact repent. God wasn’t sorry that He had given a "wrong prediction"; " God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it." - I think was rather a matter of choice and consequence, (exactly as He had set it out in Jeremiah).

Paidion, could you comment on this please? - if God didn’t know Nineveh would repent, and told Jonah to say what he did (as a prediction rather than a [potentially conditional] warning), wouldn't this be less than flattering to God's predictive powers in this instance?

(It's a bit late at night, so I hope I'm making sense. At any rate, I know what I mean).

[Paidion]

if God didn’t know Nineveh would repent, and told Jonah to say what he did (as a prediction rather than a [potentially conditional] warning), wouldn't this be less than flattering to God's predictive powers in this instance?

If God did know that Ninevah would repent, then He didn't have any predictive powers at all! He had knowledge.

However, if He had knowledge then there was no reason for Him to declare that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days. Indeed, if He knew that they would repent, and that He wouldn't destroy the city, then He lied by saying through Jonah that He would.

Of course, you can say that the prophecy was conditional and that God really meant: "Unless you repent, Ninevah will be destroyed in 40 days". But that won't do! For God Himself declared that He had intended to destroy Ninevah ---- to bring evil upon the city.

When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NASB

Notice it says only that God declared that He would bring upon them this calamity. That doesn't sound conditional to me. It sounds absolute. As I said before, the word translated "relented" here was translated into a Greek word which means "changed His mind". If the prophecy had been conditional, there would have been no change of mind. Rather God's mind would have been unchanged. He would have destroyed Ninevah if they had not repented, and would not have destroyed it if they had repented. That would have been His intent all along, and so there would have been no change of mind at all, and there would have been no regrets about what He had intended to do if they had not repented.