God’s Determinate Will Applies to Election

[Guest]

Scriptures where the verb “to know” and “foreknow” connote God’s electing love.

Of Abraham:
Genesis 18:19 (ESV)
"For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

Genesis 18:19 (KJV)
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."


Of Israel:
Amos 3:1-2 (ESV)
"Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:
You only have I known (ydah known/chosen [niv])
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your iniquities."

Of believers:
Romans 8:29 (ESV)
"For those whom he foreknew {had already chosen TEV} he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

[Guest]

Jude, I am beginning to question your honesty and christian witness. I can completely destroy your present assumptions about God "knowing" certain individuals but what would be the use since you refuse to interact? Are you afraid of genuine discussion?

james...

[Guest]

Dear James,

You are completely free to respond to my posts. I am sorry to be frustrating you if that is the case. I do not intend to be a stumbling block to anyone. But I do not care at this time to interact with responses to my posts. That Lord willing will come. I cannot promise I will respond to your posts in particular, but I may. In the meantime I would be glad to have you present food for thought. There are some who may learn from you. But that is your choice. I am sure that I can learn from you.

Thank you very much for your Christian charity and forbearance.

May the Lord give you wisdom and gladness,
Jude

[_Steve]

Hi Jude,
I agree that there is often a close correlation between the concept of God's "knowing" or "foreknowing" and that of His "choosing." We are said to be "chosen, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." (1 Pet.1:2).

Though the concepts are interdependant ("whom He foreknew He also predestined..."), yet I do not believe that they are usually synonymous. They might be on some occasions. The two Old Testament instances you quoted might even be examples of this (though I think it debatable). The problem comes with trying to make the words "know" (ginosko) and "foreknow" (proginosko) have this meaning generally, or in any particular case (as Romans 8:29) in which this meaning is in no sense obvious or called for.

For example, in the verse I cited above (1 Pet.1:2), it would be very unnatural to understand "foreknowledge" to mean "chosen." It would then be saying that "we are chosen according to the pre-chosenness of God the Father"...a tautology that could be expressed in the more natural, and less cumbersome, "we were pre-chosen by God."

The words for "knowing" are used hundreds of times in the scripture where the concept of "choosing" would never be regarded as a possible substitution. In a public debate with me, a Calvinist once said, "God is never said to know (ginosko) someone who is not of the elect." This was a statement made hastily, without research, in the heat and pressure of the moment. Of course it is not true. Jesus said to His enemies, "I know (ginosko) you, that you have not the love of God in you" (John 5:42).

In the case of Romans 8:29 ("whom He foreknew, He also predestinated..."), Calvinists always insist that "foreknew" means "fore-loved" or "pre-approved." While this meaning is not impossible to defend, it is far from obvious to any but one reading through a Calvinist lens.

As a cross-reference to make the point, Calvinists sometimes quote Jesus' words to the lost on the judgment day, "I never knew (ginosko) you!" (Matt.7:23). They say that this must not speak of mere informational knowledge, since Jesus knows all things and all men in that sense. Therefore, it must mean, "I never knew you as a friend," or "I never approved you." Then they take this presumed meaning from this verse and apply it to Romans 8:29. Very neat.

There are at least two problems with this reasoning, however. One is that, even if the word could mean "approved" in Matt.7:23, this does not change the fact that the word has no such meaning in hundreds of other occurances in the New Testament, and need not be assumed to have that meaning in Romans 8:29.

The other problem with the reasoning is that, in the anthropomorphic imagery of the judgment in Matthew 7:23, "I never knew you" actually DOES refer to the absence of informational knowledge. How do we know (ginosko) this? [Oops! Adding the parenthesis becomes habitual after a while!] We know this because, in the parallel in Luke 13:25, the Lord actually says, "I don't know you, where you are from..." In other words, "I don't know you," or "I never knew you," is in fact a profession of ignorance about factual information, and not necessarily to be retranslated as "I never approved you."

God bless you, Brother. I actually hope to see you this weekend!

[Guest]

Steve,


I could almost accept your idea of foreknowledge in 1 Peter 1:2, if it were'nt for scriptures like 2 Timothy 8-9. This makes it very plain what was the deterministic cause of God's choice, and what wasn't.


God bless.

[Guest]

Scriptures where the verb “to know” and “foreknow” connote God’s electing love.

Of Abraham:
Genesis 18:19 (ESV)
"For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

Genesis 18:19 (KJV)
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."


Of Israel:
Amos 3:1-2 (ESV)
"Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:
You only have I known (ydah known/chosen [niv])
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your iniquities."

Of believers:
Romans 8:29 (ESV)
"For those whom he foreknew {had already chosen TEV} he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Are these passages posted in support of election/predestination. If yes, I would like to know what you feel the two doctrines have in common, and what are their differences

[_Steve]

Hi Bodiddly,

You wrote:

"I could almost accept your idea of foreknowledge in 1 Peter 1:2, if it were'nt for scriptures like 2 Timothy 8-9. This makes it very plain what was the deterministic cause of God's choice, and what wasn't."

I would have to disagree with you on the point of whether this verse, taken in isolation, really "makes it very plain what was the deterministic cause of God's choice, and what wasn't."

I am assuming you are referring to 2 Timothy 1:8-9. Of the two verses, only verse nine appears to address the matter at issue. I agree that, if I had acquired a Calvinist paradigm of thinking from my study of the rest of scripture, I would probably see the Calvinist idea of determinism in the words: "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

The only reason I do not see this as a support for the Calvinist idea is that I am aware of other possible interpretations that fit the whole teaching of scripture on the subject more admirably than does the Calvinist interpretation.

Correct me if you are an exception to this general assessment, but I think people become Calvinists only after becoming acquainted with Calvinist teachers, rather than from just reading the Bible itself. The relatively few favorite "proof texts" for the Calvinist points provide the entire case for the system, and people who are acquainted only with the proof texts and not with the entire Bible as a complete revelation of the mind of God, are prone to be impressed with Calvinism's merits. Those who read the Bible in its entirely without the Calvinist "glasses" are, I think, very unlikely to find Calvinism within its pages.

For example, no one reading Genesis (or any other biblical passage) would ever get the impression (without being told) that God ordained that Adam and Eve would sin, or that the world would become incorrigibly corrupt as it did in the days before the flood, or that Israel would fail to produce the fruit that God was seeking from His vineyard, etc. Not only is there no passage of scripture that hints that these developments were part of what God determined must be, but there are also specific denials on God's part that this is the case (Gen.6:6/ Isa.5:4/ 66:3-4/ Matt.23:37).

No one would ever get the idea from reading the Bible alone, that God desires that some individuals, from birth, should never come to Christ, or that the wicked should die in their sins—especially since God has issued specific denials concerning this matter (Ezek.33:11/ 1 Tim.2:4-6/ 2 Pet.3:9).

To say that God determines who will be saved and who will not, flies right in the face of every passages (there are hundreds!) where God complains about the sinful choices that the people are making (which Calvinists claim that God sovereignty ordained!), as well as every impassioned appeal from God to "all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

So what does a verse like 2 Timothy 1:9 mean? As in every passage discussing God's election, there is the underlying idea that God made a choice before history began that whoever would be "in Christ" would obtain salvation eternal life "in Him". The was a categorical choice, not individual. I do not believe that you can find one passage in scripture about election where a writer states that God selected certain individuals, as individuals, to be saved. I would not object to being corrected about this.

When Paul speaks of the chosenness of "us" and of "you" (always plural), he is talking the same way as the Old Testament speaks of the chosenness of Israel. As a corporate entity, Israel as a whole, was chosen by God to be a special player in His program on earth. This does not mean that God decided who would be and who would not be in this entity called Israel. There were people born Gentiles who, by their free choice, became members of the nation of Israel (e.g., Ruth and Rahab). Also, some who were Jews by birth apostasized and no longer belonged to Israel (Acts 3:23/ Rom.11:17-20). The choice of Israel as a corporate entity for special treatment was God's sovereign choice; the choice of any individual whether or not to be part of Israel, belonged to the individual.

Christ (understood corporately—1 Cor.12:12) is the New Israel. Paul sometimes says we are "chosen in Christ" (Eph.1:4), or in the verse under consideration, that we have received "grace...given to us in Christ" and that these transactions predate history. What I believe this means is that God chose Christ before the world began, and chose at that same time that those who are "in Him" would be given grace and salvation. The True Vine (Christ) is unconditionally chosen by God, but the branches hold their status tentatively (John 15:6).

All spiritual blessings in the heavenlies accrue to "us", Paul says, "in Christ"—but I understand "us" as meaning "those of us who have chosen to be in Christ, not seen as so many individuals, but as the corporate entity (the church)." The question of whether it was God's choice or ours as to whether you or I came to be in the church is left unaddressed in passages such as these—but not elsewhere in scripture.

Passages about God's choosing are always talking about God's choice of Christ, along with whomever may be "in Him." But when individual destinies are being discussed, it is the decision of the individual, his responsibility for believing, and his culpability for not doing so, that is always in view.

As I said, I would invite any Calvinist to present ONE scripture that says that God chose any given individual for salvation (not verses about God's calling of a man to special ministry or vocation). Verses that use plurals ("we", "us", "ye") always allow the possibility that it is the church corporately that is said to be chosen—not individuals.

ON one other point in 2 Timothy 1:9—it is possible that you are reading a Calvinist interpretation into the words, "not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace." You did not mention this, but many Calvinists somehow import the idea that Paul is saying, "not by our choice to believe [i.e., "works"], but by God's sovereign purpose [for each individual], and His grace [in the sense of unconditional election]."

It should be obvious that Paul's words do not in any sense call for these special meanings. In Paul's epistles, "works" is never a category that includes the idea of "a choice to believe;" God's "purpose" is not said to be for individuals, and may as justly be applied to His general purpose of saving all who come to Christ, who ever they may end up being; and "grace" is not seen as "something unconditionally given", since Paul teaches that grace comes as a result of, through the agency of (or on condition of) faith (Eph.2:8/ Rom.5:2).

I am pleased that the Calvinist contributors to this forum sometimes actually cite scriptures for their points. It would be good if they can also exegete the same texts faithfully in the context of scripture, so as to demonstrate that the verses they are quoting actually mean to make the point they are trying to establish. If both sides would do this, I believe this discussion could prove to be very profitable.

God bless you, Bodiddly. Glad to have you aboard!