1 John 4:9 (ESV)
In this the love of God was made manifest among
us, that God sent his only Son into the world, ....
John 3:16 (ESV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish
but have eternal life.
Hi Steve,
Both of these verses speak of the love of God which
I am sure we agree is essential to our salvation. God
could have justly left men under His wrath and
condemnation, but He chose to do otherwise out of
His love. So it is God who moves first there toward
our salvation. But then there are those who are the
“whoever” who believe. Do you think this verse
teaches a free will or ability of man to believe
without a special move of God to make belief
possible?
Thanks, Jude
P.S. I remember your grandmother died this past
year. My grandmother died too now; ten days ago.
It was Joni’s birthday. So we say Mamita went to
heaven that day. She was about ninety nine may be a
hundred (not good records from Mexico). A saint.
Thanks again
John 3:16 "whosoever"
John 3:16 "whosoever"
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Romans 8:29 (ESV)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Hi Jude,
Glad to hear your grandma was promoted! I can hardly wait myself!
I'm sorry not to have written back yet on your previous question about Romans 9. I have been swamped with questions on several topics, and my kids and I have been moving the past two weeks.
Do I think John 3:16 teaches a free will or ability of man to believe without a special move of God to make belief possible? I think the freedom of the will is implied in this and many other verses that state that faith is a condition for salvation. Where conditions are stated to exist, the choice to meet the conditions or not seems to be implied. But believing in freedom of choice does not rule out the role of special acts of God urging and assisting the man to make a wise choice.
I believe that man cannot choose to believe in Christ without divine enablement, in the sense that I don't think that a man can do anything, including live and breath, without divine enablement. I don't think a man can choose an item from a restaurant menu (or even go into a restaurant) without such empowerment from God.
This does not mean that I believe God makes the choice for him which entree to order. One of the many things God enables people to do is to think, feel, be motivated and choose in a manner that is free from coersion or direct control.
That Jesus is God's Son and Lord of all is something that a man is free to believe or disbelieve, just as he is free to believe in the existence of atoms, depending upon what he perceives the evidence to favor. He has seen neither Christ nor atoms, but he may conclude that there is adequate evidence available to compel his belief in either or both of them.
There is a difference, however, in the choice of a man to believe in Christ, and the choice of a man to believe in atoms, and that is that there is little at stake for the average man whether atoms exist or not (he can be vaporized by a nuclear bomb as readily whether he believes in atoms or disbelieves in them). But everything is at stake in the decision to believe in Christ or not. If Christ is true, then all is lost in disbelieving; but if Christ is false, then all is lost in following Him. I know that some preachers tell sinners that, in coming to Christ, they "have nothing to lose." This is a false representation—good salemanship, but poor ethics. Jesus said that if a man does not forsake all that he has, he cannot be a disciple (Luke 14:33).
To forsake everything for a hoax, and to gain nothing is a great tragedy. Some sinners do not wish to gamble one way, and some do not wish to gamble the other. To stake everything on the validity of Christ's claims (even given their manifest truthfulness) is something many men are not willing to do. They love their sin too much and believe in the gospel too little. By rejecting the gospel, they gamble, with eternity to lose...but they prefer a bird in the hand.
Others, equally freely, gamble the other way. To surrender to the claims of Christ risks only the loss of the pleasures of sin and the gratification of the world—which no one can keep forever anyway. They see the evidence of the gospel (or perhaps they simply feel convicted by the Spirit of its validity) and they bet their lives that it is true.
Choosing either way thus involves a calculated risk, but people do this kind of thing all the time. I don't believe we can say that such decisions lie outside the competence of human nature.
Non-Calvinists acknowledge the fact that no man ever makes a decision to believe in Christ without the prior phenomenon of "drawing" or even "dragging" having taken place by God upon his soul. Thus no man repents in a vacuum, since God surrounds every man with reasons, evidences and motivations to believe. Some resist this drawing to their own destruction, but the man who makes the right choice will still be compelled (and delighted) to give God all the glory for his salvation.
Glad to hear your grandma was promoted! I can hardly wait myself!
I'm sorry not to have written back yet on your previous question about Romans 9. I have been swamped with questions on several topics, and my kids and I have been moving the past two weeks.
Do I think John 3:16 teaches a free will or ability of man to believe without a special move of God to make belief possible? I think the freedom of the will is implied in this and many other verses that state that faith is a condition for salvation. Where conditions are stated to exist, the choice to meet the conditions or not seems to be implied. But believing in freedom of choice does not rule out the role of special acts of God urging and assisting the man to make a wise choice.
I believe that man cannot choose to believe in Christ without divine enablement, in the sense that I don't think that a man can do anything, including live and breath, without divine enablement. I don't think a man can choose an item from a restaurant menu (or even go into a restaurant) without such empowerment from God.
This does not mean that I believe God makes the choice for him which entree to order. One of the many things God enables people to do is to think, feel, be motivated and choose in a manner that is free from coersion or direct control.
That Jesus is God's Son and Lord of all is something that a man is free to believe or disbelieve, just as he is free to believe in the existence of atoms, depending upon what he perceives the evidence to favor. He has seen neither Christ nor atoms, but he may conclude that there is adequate evidence available to compel his belief in either or both of them.
There is a difference, however, in the choice of a man to believe in Christ, and the choice of a man to believe in atoms, and that is that there is little at stake for the average man whether atoms exist or not (he can be vaporized by a nuclear bomb as readily whether he believes in atoms or disbelieves in them). But everything is at stake in the decision to believe in Christ or not. If Christ is true, then all is lost in disbelieving; but if Christ is false, then all is lost in following Him. I know that some preachers tell sinners that, in coming to Christ, they "have nothing to lose." This is a false representation—good salemanship, but poor ethics. Jesus said that if a man does not forsake all that he has, he cannot be a disciple (Luke 14:33).
To forsake everything for a hoax, and to gain nothing is a great tragedy. Some sinners do not wish to gamble one way, and some do not wish to gamble the other. To stake everything on the validity of Christ's claims (even given their manifest truthfulness) is something many men are not willing to do. They love their sin too much and believe in the gospel too little. By rejecting the gospel, they gamble, with eternity to lose...but they prefer a bird in the hand.
Others, equally freely, gamble the other way. To surrender to the claims of Christ risks only the loss of the pleasures of sin and the gratification of the world—which no one can keep forever anyway. They see the evidence of the gospel (or perhaps they simply feel convicted by the Spirit of its validity) and they bet their lives that it is true.
Choosing either way thus involves a calculated risk, but people do this kind of thing all the time. I don't believe we can say that such decisions lie outside the competence of human nature.
Non-Calvinists acknowledge the fact that no man ever makes a decision to believe in Christ without the prior phenomenon of "drawing" or even "dragging" having taken place by God upon his soul. Thus no man repents in a vacuum, since God surrounds every man with reasons, evidences and motivations to believe. Some resist this drawing to their own destruction, but the man who makes the right choice will still be compelled (and delighted) to give God all the glory for his salvation.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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Does God love those who will not be saved? If so, then why doesn't He save them? Certainly He has the power. I had (and exercised!) the power to keep my young children from running out into the street. Does God love some people so little that He is not willing to save them from themselves?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Does God love those who do not believe and who will not be saved? Apparently. Of the rich, young ruler (who rejected Christ), the scripture says, "Jesus, looking at him, loved him..."(Mark 10:21). In fact, God so loved the world that He sacrificed Himself for it.
I realize that Calvinism teaches that God does not love all men enough to wish for them all to be saved, because in Calvinism, God can save whomever He wishes. It follows, in Calvinism, that those who are not saved ultimately must belong to a class of men that God did not care about enough to want to save them (or else He would have done so). This disagrees with many scriptural affirmations that God wants all men to be saved (e.g., Ezek.33:11/ 1 Tim.2:4/ 2 Pet.3:9/ Rev.2:21).
You can pull your child out of the street only because you do not leave the choice to him as to whether he will go there or not. While he is a child, you protect him from his foolishness and do not give him full liberty of choice.
However, when he is mature and responsible for his own choices, you allow him to make his own decisions, even when you disagree with them. If your son is 30 years old, and is about to make a disastrous decision that could ruin his life, you plead with him and urge him to do what you know would be best for him, but you do not lock him in a closet and forcibly prevent him from making that decision. You would restrain your dog well into its old age, but not your son—because you recognize your grown son to be a morally responsible agent. So also it is with God. Some of the sons that He brings up ever so lovingly and protectively nonetheless turn from Him—and He permits them to do so (Isaiah 1:2/ Hosea 11:1-7/ Luke 15:11-12).
God makes the animals obey Him, and they do just what He wants them to do (e.g., Num.22:28,33/ 1 Sam.6:7-12/Prov.30:25-27/ Job 39:13-17). But when God made mankind, He deliberately created something unique and unlike anything He had made in the animal kingdom. The man, made morally free in the image of God would not necessarily obey God, as the animals would (Isaiah 1:3/ Jer. 8:7). This is the cost of freedom.
It is not for lack of love for the lost that God allows men to make their own decisions about salvation. It is, rather, His commitment to honor the dignity of the image of God in which man was made. God will plead with, rebuke, convict and reason with willful man, but in the end, I believe, He honors His own image in man—rational and responsible moral personhood—and will not force any to obey Him (Luke 7:30/ Matt.23:37).
I realize that Calvinism teaches that God does not love all men enough to wish for them all to be saved, because in Calvinism, God can save whomever He wishes. It follows, in Calvinism, that those who are not saved ultimately must belong to a class of men that God did not care about enough to want to save them (or else He would have done so). This disagrees with many scriptural affirmations that God wants all men to be saved (e.g., Ezek.33:11/ 1 Tim.2:4/ 2 Pet.3:9/ Rev.2:21).
You can pull your child out of the street only because you do not leave the choice to him as to whether he will go there or not. While he is a child, you protect him from his foolishness and do not give him full liberty of choice.
However, when he is mature and responsible for his own choices, you allow him to make his own decisions, even when you disagree with them. If your son is 30 years old, and is about to make a disastrous decision that could ruin his life, you plead with him and urge him to do what you know would be best for him, but you do not lock him in a closet and forcibly prevent him from making that decision. You would restrain your dog well into its old age, but not your son—because you recognize your grown son to be a morally responsible agent. So also it is with God. Some of the sons that He brings up ever so lovingly and protectively nonetheless turn from Him—and He permits them to do so (Isaiah 1:2/ Hosea 11:1-7/ Luke 15:11-12).
God makes the animals obey Him, and they do just what He wants them to do (e.g., Num.22:28,33/ 1 Sam.6:7-12/Prov.30:25-27/ Job 39:13-17). But when God made mankind, He deliberately created something unique and unlike anything He had made in the animal kingdom. The man, made morally free in the image of God would not necessarily obey God, as the animals would (Isaiah 1:3/ Jer. 8:7). This is the cost of freedom.
It is not for lack of love for the lost that God allows men to make their own decisions about salvation. It is, rather, His commitment to honor the dignity of the image of God in which man was made. God will plead with, rebuke, convict and reason with willful man, but in the end, I believe, He honors His own image in man—rational and responsible moral personhood—and will not force any to obey Him (Luke 7:30/ Matt.23:37).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve