Self-Identifying as Sinner

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darinhouston
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Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by darinhouston » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:25 pm

I've been thinking about something for a while now and may want to call in and have Steve expound verbally, but in the meantime...

In listening to Steve's latest Matthew lectures (in connection with Sermon on the Mount), Steve made reference to our need to acknowledge and identify ourselves as sinners. I have no problem with this, and I likewise identify with it and certainly see how depraved I personally would be without Christ and even with Christ to the extent I don't live according to the Spirit.

However.... In listening some years ago to other lectures, I recall Steve criticizing many "recovery ministries" because they promote self-identifying as an "addict" or an "alcoholic" or whatever the recovery issue might be. His point was (as best I can recall) that Scripture notes that "such as this you WERE" before being liberated by Christ, etc., and that it is counter-productive and denies our liberation to self-identify in this way.

So, my question is whether this might not apply to self-identifying as a "sinner" and to what extent there is a difference. We certainly still "sin" after being saved, but does that make us who are saved still a "Sinner" any more than a "former alcoholic" might still lapse into a drink or a "former addict" lapse into "using"?

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Homer
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Homer » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:33 pm

Darin,

You wrote:
However.... In listening some years ago to other lectures, I recall Steve criticizing many "recovery ministries" because they promote self-identifying as an "addict" or an "alcoholic" or whatever the recovery issue might be. His point was (as best I can recall) that Scripture notes that "such as this you WERE" before being liberated by Christ, etc., and that it is counter-productive and denies our liberation to self-identify in this way.

So, my question is whether this might not apply to self-identifying as a "sinner" and to what extent there is a difference. We certainly still "sin" after being saved, but does that make us who are saved still a "Sinner" any more than a "former alcoholic" might still lapse into a drink or a "former addict" lapse into "using"?
I agree we are still sinners even though we are "in Christ". I think the difference (what Steve may have meant) is that we have been set free from our old master and are now slaves of a new master, but we do not always do what our new master would have us do.

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:15 pm

I tend to think it is more a matter of emphasis.

We are saints of God... but there is a sense in which we are sinner's still. I would not consider it healthy to constantly be thinking of myself as a sinner. A 'sinner saved by grace' is better. A 'saint' is better still in terms of how we predominately think of ourselves. Even a saint, though, will remember that he was a sinner and that he still relies on the grace of God to live righteously each day.

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darinhouston
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by darinhouston » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:00 pm

mattress wrote:Even a saint, though, will remember that he was a sinner and that he still relies on the grace of God to live righteously each day.
I agree, but that begs the question about the alcoholic, etc. -- putting aside the question of alcoholism being an "illness"/"physical condition", is it not then similarly appropriate for someone to identify as an alcoholic (a particular type of sinner, I suppose)? They do this to remind themselves of their "condition" even while recognizing they are saved by grace.

dizerner

Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by dizerner » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:16 pm

In Adam I'm always a sinner in Christ I'm always a saint—there seems to be allowed some tension in Scripture.

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:08 pm

If you go to a farm, and do some farm work, does that mean that you are a farmer? I don't think so. A farmer is one whose occupation is farming. He works at farming every day.

If you fall into wrongdoing on a few occasions does that mean you are a sinner? I don't think so. A sinner is one whose whole way of life is sinful. He sins every day.
Paidion

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:34 pm

darinhouston wrote:
mattress wrote:Even a saint, though, will remember that he was a sinner and that he still relies on the grace of God to live righteously each day.
I agree, but that begs the question about the alcoholic, etc. -- putting aside the question of alcoholism being an "illness"/"physical condition", is it not then similarly appropriate for someone to identify as an alcoholic (a particular type of sinner, I suppose)? They do this to remind themselves of their "condition" even while recognizing they are saved by grace.
As a non-expert on overcoming alcohol addiction... I would imagine that the best way to overcome it is not to spend the day thinking about how you used to need alcohol. The only time it would be necessary to remind yourself that "I am an alcoholic" would be when you are in a tempting situation.

Likewise, for a Christian, I don't think the best way to overcome our old natures is to remind ourselves how we used to be addicted to sin. The only time it would be necessary is when we are faced with temptation ("I am a sinner saved by grace, and by grace I reject that old me again").

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Homer
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Homer » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:00 am

Well, I think the Apostle Paul's statement should put this controversy to rest:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB)

15. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.


In Paul's statement "am" is present indicative active which refers to something which is occurring while he is speaking.

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:17 pm

Hi Homer, you wrote:In Paul's statement "am" is present indicative active which refers to something which is occurring while he is speaking.
So when Paul wrote this, was he still putting Christians to death? (which is what made him the foremost of sinners)

Possibly Paul used the present tense in the same way many do when they say, "That man is a murderer!", even though the man who killed someone 30 years ago, has since become a disciple of Jesus, and has lived a committed Christian life ever since. They actually mean "That man was a murderer" or better yet, "That man committed murder."

Paul also wrote:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Notice in this case, Paul says "Such WERE some of you" and not "Such ARE some of you."
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by steve » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:34 pm

While agreeing with much that has been posted above, in answer to the original post, I would clarify my thoughts on this question.

While the two are related, I would distinguish between "identity" and "behavior." Paidion's illustration of the "farmer" is a good one. I often tell people that "I am not a musician," when they indicate that they think I am one. I don't mean that I can't play an instrument, or that I don't do so. I mean that playing music is an occasional hobby for me, not a vocation. I know many true "musicians." They play their instrument every day—often for many hours a day. They aim at perfecting their proficiency. They consider that playing music is their primary gifting and contribution to the world. In certain cases known to me, musicians, because of their identity as musicians, disdain to take a "day job." They are above such menial labors. They are musicians. (That is why there are so many "starving musicians").

I am not a musician, in that sense. For me, music is a hobby. I put almost no time whatsoever into improving my proficiency—and have, as a result, stalled my progress in musicianship for, probably 35 years. Playing music is an extremely low priority for me, and I would be embarrassed to refer to myself as a "musician" in the presence of real, self-identified musicians.

I might seem to contradict myself if I were in a small gathering lacking a piano player, and someone said, "Are there any musicians here?" In such a case, I might temporarily take on that function, ostensibly accepting the label as well. While not actually a real musician, I guess I am temporarily functioning in that role when I am thinking about or actually playing an instrument. But even then, I don't pretend, to myself, that I am a real musician. This is the difference between identity and function.

So also with being a "sinner." I am identified, in my mind, as a true disciple of Christ—one who has given up sinning as a vocation, and as an identifying feature of who I think myself to be (as per mattrose's comments above). On the other hand, when I am sinning, at that moment, I am a sinner. In fact, even when I am not sinning, I recognize that there is in me something that renders the repetition of past sins not impossible.

I do not count myself a sinner, existentially. Sin cannot define who I am or my vocation. I do consider myself, occasionally and functionally, a "sinner" when I am sinning.

When Paul says, "such WERE some of you..." he is not referring to identity, but behavior. He does not speak of "alcoholics," though he speaks of "drunkards." A drunkard is someone who habitually gets drunk. "Alcoholic" refers to a person in bondage to "an addition"—even if they are no longer getting drunk.

When AA encourages a man to introduce himself with the words, "I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic," they are encouraging the use of an identity-word, not a function-word, since "Joe, the alcoholic" may, in fact, have been sober these past ten years. He has not been a drunkard in those years, but he still identifies himself by the label of his past sins.

If a man is no longer a drunkard, in what sense is he still addicted to alcohol? Addiction should not be an identity. It may speak of a peculiar weakness in resisting certain temptations, but AA's parade of clean and sober "alcoholics" proves either a) that the the temptation of the "addict" is not irresistible, any more than is any temptation—or b) that the person in question does not have the addiction, and should not speak of himself as an "alcoholic."

P.S. I think Paidion is probably correct in his comparing Paul's "I am chief of sinners," with "That man is a murderer." The ex-con, at some level, bears, from his history, a residual stigma of his past sins which should keep him very humble—even if he is very far from being that person he once was.

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