Self-Identifying as Sinner

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RickC
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by RickC » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:14 pm

IMPORTANT ADDENDUM (caps for emphasis)

While attending the Christian meetings I was given a "Life Recovery Bible" (NLT).

As seen in the link, it's 12 Steps based, following the medical model. The first thing I did when I got my copy was see what the commentary would be on 1 Cor 6:9-11.

IT WAS BLANK!

(And the commentators are supposed to be Christian)?

I asked folks during the meeting if they thought I was off-base in seeing myself as a former alky, citing the above verses. "You're preaching to the choir, Rick." Yet they all saw themselves as continuing to BE alcoholics. My guess is that they were so entrenched in AA doctrine that they couldn't let it go.

One week I arranged to jam guitars with a guy who came to the meetings. He had been in a metal band. I used to be in a classic rock/blues outift. I thought it would be really cool to 'trade licks' (teach each other stuff).

But a few days before we were to have jammed, he "went back out there" (drank & used drugs).

He died.

Not a month or so later another guy who had gotten sober and became a Christian did the same thing -- and hung himself. He was also very involved in AA, but didn't come to our Christian meetings. He'd even become a Southern Baptist deacon.

Not long after this, I went to a brand new Christian meeting and mentioned that I wish those guys had known what I knew; that they could be FORMER alcoholics and/or addicts. (And, unfortunately, I don't think many people knew what I really meant, even though I read 1 Cor 6:9-11).

Folks, if you know anyone who has an addiction or any other grievous sin problem (for that matter), please, please ask them to consider 1 Cor 6:9-11.

You may save their lives!

Lord, have mercy, in Jesus' Name, Amen
Last edited by RickC on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:42 pm

Thank you so much for that wonderful testimony, Rick! Your experience illustrates the importance of not continuing to identify yourself as an alcoholic. It is a good analogy to the danger also of self-identification as a sinner.

i don't think that the idea that one who was an alcoholic remains an alcoholic throughout life, is the medical model. Rather it is the AA model.
I have a friend whom I taught many years ago when he was six years old in grade one. Later in life he became alcoholic. Then in order to overcome alcoholism, he attended AA meetings. At the beginning of each meeting, he was required to say, "My name is Billy Belewski [fictitious name]; I am an alcoholic." A few years later, Billy became a disciple of Christ. He continued to attend AA meetings, but he also came to realize that he was no longer an alcoholic, for he could drink a glass of wine, and not have any desire to continue drinking. Suddenly, he realized that he had been lying at the AA meetings by identifying himself as an alcoholic. The next time he went to an AA meeting, he said, "My name is Billy Belewski; I am no longer an alcoholic. I was delivered from alcoholism by the power of Christ." As a result of this statement, he was asked not to return.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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RickC
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by RickC » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:17 pm

Thanks, Don.
If my testimony can be of help to anyone . . . .
Anyone at all.

Re: 'medical model'. When AA was founded, several doctors were consulted. Back then (in the 30s), AA, following medical advice, came to see alcoholism as an allergy/disease. Since then (and currently) it is technically 'Alcohol Dependence' (in partial or full remission; the diagnosis remains intact).

As to your friend, "Bill B.". AA is actually somewhat like denominations. That is, different regions have differing emphases. You have AA old school conservatives and liberals, etc., etc. Meetings can be very unalike in the same town, especially in larger cities.

In "The Big Book" (what AAs call the book, Alcoholics Anonymous) there are stories of people who 'tried the religious cure' -- and failed. So AA tends to frown on bringing one's personal religious beliefs into meetings. They speak of a Higher Power and some add "who I choose to call 'God'."

In any event, I know a lady who got sober after becoming a Christian. She didn't drink again and had no desire to, but announced that the Lord delivered her in a meeting. She was also asked to leave.

I can understand why she and "Bill B." were asked to go. First, one of the AA Traditions states, "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" (you don't have to quit first).

Next, the first step in AA is, "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol; that our lives had become unmanageable."

So your friend was able to manage drinking, didn't meet the requirement for membership, and . . . .

I've been in meetings where similar things came up. It always depends on who is 'chairing' the meeting (directing it) as to how things are handled.

I've seen people severely rebuked for simply saying something like, "My life is getting so much better. I've even started going back to church."

Back in the day (old school AA) this would probably have been acceptable. (Even Bill Wilson, a co-founder of AA, had sessions with Bishop Fulton J. Sheen for over a year, but decided not to convert lest AA be viewed as 'for Catholics only').

In any event, perhaps "Bill" and the lady I mentioned helped lead someone to Christ(?). If so, excellent!!!

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RickC
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by RickC » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:42 pm

P.S. (not exactly on-topic) but . . . .

My first AA sponsor, the late, great David Rudolph, of Lake Forest, IL (RIP, whose neighbor was "Mr. T", LOL); well, David had an "AA" belt buckle.

So I says, "How long do I have to be sober before I get one of those?"

"Frequent Flyer, American Airlines, 100,000 miles."

Oh, brotherrrrrrrrrrr, LOL

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:47 pm

Rick, have you ever come across this book?

Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:30 pm

But I do not think the analogy holds, i. e. being set free from a particular kind of sin does not mean you will be set free from sinning again in other ways. I know this personally. And testimony can do harm as well as inspire others. How does the person feel who continues to struggle and fight against a particular sin when he hears that another person was delivered instantly without having any struggle?

Another question. When Jesus was asked to teach His disciples how to pray he instructed them to pray "forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors". Why would a person who is no longer a sinner need to pray for forgiveness, wouldn't it be a one time prayer?

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:01 pm

Homer wrote:Another question. When Jesus was asked to teach His disciples how to pray he instructed them to pray "forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors". Why would a person who is no longer a sinner need to pray for forgiveness, wouldn't it be a one time prayer?
Again, I think it's legitimate to say that a 'sinner' is someone who sins as their way of life. Given this definition, no Christian should sin as their way of life and, therefore, no Christian should think of themselves as a sinner.

If, on the other hand, you want to define 'sinner' as a person who sometimes stumbles/sins, then, of course, all Christians are sinners in that sense.

It might be a decent argument to use the Lord's Prayer to suggest that Jesus anticipated us having to 'daily' ask for forgiveness (or at least contemplate such a need).

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:14 pm

That's the way I see it, too, Matt.

Homer quoted:
Merriam-Webster.com:

noun sin·ner \ˈsi-nər\
: someone who has done something wrong according to religious or moral law : someone who has sinned
The Oxford Dictionary defines the word as:
A person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts:
It doesn't say "A person who has transgressed" but "A person who transgresses," suggesting ongoing transgression.

Dictionary.com defines the word as:
A person who sins
Again suggesting a continuance in sinning.

So it seems the word is being used in two different senses:
1. One who has sinned.
and
2. One who habitually sins.

I once had a visitor who professed Christianity who said, "I sin every day!" He actually sounded proud of it. But his belief was "My sins are forgiven, past, present, and future," so that he believed he could sin with impunity.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by dizerner » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:06 pm

I think a point is being missed in all this. By admitting I'm a sinner I can reach for a power beyond myself; I can trust in something other than my own ability, willpower and effort. How can I do that if I think I have to live up to a standard? It puts the onus and burden back on me to perform adequately to achieve affirmation. I would say this: I'm a saint by admitting I'm a sinner. Someone else is making me a saint, it's a secret ingredient. His name is Jesus. Should I dip my hand in the pie of his credit for sanctifying me?

I'm a sinner: one who habitually sins without the life of another upholding me.
I'm a saint: a sinner upheld and carried by the saving work of Christ alone.

I heard one time, a very successful minister ask God: "How much of this is really me and how much is really you?" After asking that question, this man of God felt all the grace was removed from his life. He sat for three days unable to focus or think on anything. (Interesting 3 days again.) After that I don't think he ever wondered about the answer.

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:47 am

dizerner wrote:I think a point is being missed in all this. By admitting I'm a sinner I can reach for a power beyond myself; I can trust in something other than my own ability, willpower and effort. How can I do that if I think I have to live up to a standard? It puts the onus and burden back on me to perform adequately to achieve affirmation. I would say this: I'm a saint by admitting I'm a sinner. Someone else is making me a saint, it's a secret ingredient. His name is Jesus. Should I dip my hand in the pie of his credit for sanctifying me?

I'm a sinner: one who habitually sins without the life of another upholding me.
I'm a saint: a sinner upheld and carried by the saving work of Christ alone.
It's interesting that you think this is a point being missed since it's what I feel has been being said all along!

For example... in my first post I said:
"Even a saint, though, will remember that he was a sinner and that he still relies on the grace of God to live righteously each day."

In my second post I said:
"I am a sinner saved by grace, and by grace I reject that old me"

In my third post I said:
"I think the best policy would be to 'label' yourself a child of God, a saint, saved, etc. and to 'keep in mind' the fact that you are also a human being naturally prone to sin."

In my fourth post I said:
"we overcome sin by the grace of God. But the grace of God works cooperatively. And it is not cooperating with God's sanctifying grace to keep insisting that it is not working or able to work!"

It seems to me that we are in agreement. On our own, we would be sinners... but by the grace of God, we can be transformed from sinners to saints.

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