Self-Identifying as Sinner

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:09 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:When Paul says, "such WERE some of you..." he is not referring to identity, but behavior. He does not speak of "alcoholics," though he speaks of "drunkards." A drunkard is someone who habitually gets drunk. "Alcoholic" refers to a person in bondage to "an addition"—even if they are no longer getting drunk.
According to the NKJV, Paul spoke of "homosexuals." The Greek for this is also a plural noun "μαλακοι." Would that indicate identity? Or behaviour? It seems to suggest identity. However, the ESV renders that plural noun with the clause "men who practice homosexuality." If that is a legitimate translation of the word, it would seem to indicate behaviour.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:10 am

I think we can all agree that "in my flesh dwells no good thing."

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Homer
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Homer » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:16 am

James 3:2 (NASB)

2. For we all stumble in many ways.


This stumbling includes me and thee, that is, everyone posting here. And the Apostle Paul when he wrote that he was the chief of sinners. Sure, Paul was using hyperbole, referring to his past, but also, I think, humbly recognizing his present condition:

Philippians 3:7-12 (NASB)

7. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
(any law) but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11. in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.


To me the issue, as alluded to by Steve in his excellent reply, is one of humility.

Luke 18 (NASB)

9. And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10. “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14. I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


We should acknowledge and confess the sins that we commit, of course, but the problem is we do not always recognize it when we have sinned. I think we should follow the example of the tax collector and not only confess our faults, but also what we are: imperfect. We fall short of the mark, we are sinners. Jesus seems to have approved of the practice.

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Paidion
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Paidion » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:28 pm

I don't think anyone here is claiming to have never sinned. What some of us are claiming is that if we are in the process of being saved from sin then it is inappropriate for us to take on the identification of "sinner." For sinning is not our practice. We are saying that the definition of "sinner" is "one whose life style is that of continually sinning."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Homer
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:11 am

Merriam-Webster.com:

noun sin·ner \ˈsi-nər\
: someone who has done something wrong according to religious or moral law : someone who has sinned

If we "stumble in many ways" we are sinners. Certainly our Lord recognizes the difference between a person who practices sin and those for whom sinning is an aberration, but we never get to the place where we do not need mercy IMO.

dizerner

Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by dizerner » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:26 am

I think some people are thinking that seeing yourself as a sinner might encourage you to sin more, instead of believing in the sanctifying power of grace... I guess I feel like I've seen both what God's grace can do for me and the awful things I'm capable of without it.

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:01 am

I go back to my initial point that it's really a question of emphasis.

I've seen many people... trained to tell themselves that they 'sin in thought word and dead every day' and that they are primarily 'sinners'... continue to live very sinful lives. Why wouldn't they? They're told that's what they are to expect.

I don't think it'd be healthy to EMPHASIZE our pasts or our fading presents. The New Testament authors, it seems to me, more generally address the church as saints of God.

Like it or not, labels do seem to make a difference. I think the best policy would be to 'label' yourself a child of God, a saint, saved, etc. and to 'keep in mind' the fact that you are also a human being naturally prone to sin.

dizerner

Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by dizerner » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:29 am

mattrose wrote:Why wouldn't they? They're told that's what they are to expect.
I hear this a lot... can I ask a question without it seeming hostile... honestly I wonder. Do people really think we overcome sin with the power of positive thinking?

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mattrose
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by mattrose » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:14 am

dizerner wrote:I hear this a lot... can I ask a question without it seeming hostile... honestly I wonder. Do people really think we overcome sin with the power of positive thinking?
No, we overcome sin by the grace of God. But the grace of God works cooperatively. And it is not cooperating with God's sanctifying grace to keep insisting that it is not working or able to work!

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RickC
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Re: Self-Identifying as Sinner

Post by RickC » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:38 pm

Greetings, Friends (of whom I see some of you on Facebook from time to time),

If I did a Search, I'm sure I could find some of my old posts on this topic & link to it. But I'm off work tonite (3rd shift rest area caretaker, i.e., custodian/janitor). Which, when I'm off work I'm always in a good mood. So I feel like posting, ;)

Brief aside: Steve once mentioned in a lecture that he liked being a janitor because it didn't take much thought; that he could meditate on God & the scriptures. (Same here, but I also play a lot of guitar when my work is done . . . not that I consider myself a "musician"), LOL
_____________

In any event, I was active in AA for 18 years on & off. The longest time of continuous sobriety I maintained was 9 months. So, it was: on & off & on & off & etc., etc.

At one point I was laid off from my job and learned that my county would pay for me to go to my county's counseling center. I did it for something to do, but still had some intentions of really trying to sober up.

As it turned out, my counselor was a Christian. Soon I was going to "Christian 12 Step" meetings with him. Most Christian recovery groups (12 steps kind and Celebrate Recovery) accept what I'll call 'the medical model' of recovery. That is, they view alcoholism as a 'disease' from which one never fully recovers -- even if they stop drinking.

At these Christian meetings they had certain Bible verses to 'match' the 12 steps, which were slightly revised from AA's, but were essentially the same.

One time I brought up 1 Cor 6:9-11 . . . "and such WERE some of you." I had known of these verses for years and years; that alcoholism (drunkard) was a past tense thing in the Bible.

Making a long story short, I simply asked [begged!] God to make my alcoholism PAST TENSE. I went thru withdrawals (DTs) for three days alone in my apartment. When I came to, so to speak, I wanted a drink about as much as a mouthful of rocks. The desire was lifted away from me.

Then it occurred to me that Jesus was in the grave three days and nights, which, the worse withdrawals occur during the first 72 hours. (I knew this as I also worked in Alcohol Rehab in the Navy . . . after having gone thru it myself, which I tried to hide from my peers, even stealing the documentation of it out of my service record and throwing it away. Which is a felony crime, but don't tell anyone, OK)? LOL

Back to the medical model. While it is true that some people may have a genetic predisposition to become alcoholic, the medical model insists the 'disease' is incurable, though manageable thru abstinence.

AA teaches this as well. Reason being, I suppose, is that many alkies tend to forget, rationalize away and/or deny that they are (these are all symptoms also).

The medical profession has shown that wherever an alcoholic leaves off, and then drinks again, they pick right up where they left off. This happened to me many times. My last bout with beer was exactly like this: 15-20 beers a day and non-stop on weekends. More than I'd drank before.

So, where am I going with all of this?

I suppose, statistically-speaking, I would fit the medical model as an alcoholic, whether I ever drink again or not.

But you see, it wasn't UNTIL I wanted to become a FORMER ALKY (by God's Grace, as Brother Matt said) that it actually happened.

I no longer go to AA, but did go to a meeting when I made 5 years sober (5.5 years ago). I had received a lot of good advice over those years. Most especially with my first AA sponsor who was one of 'The Good Ol' Timers', i.e., 'old school AA' before the medical profession got involved with their multi-million dollar recovery biznis.

So, biblically-speaking, I felt that I had to announce myself as a 'recovered alcoholic' at AA and Christian meetings. (This caused some controversy in AA, which, at one point I asked a guy if he would like for me to read some Bible for him during a meeting) - "No thanks!"

I simply had to renew my mind and think how God does, as opposed to BEING an alcoholic. For when I thought I had an incurable disease, the 'disease' always won.

Two Models
Medical (genetics, behavioral modification/management)
versus
Biblical (mind renewal, stop sinning, new identity in Christ)

Y'all take care! :)
Last edited by RickC on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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