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Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby paulespino » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:37 pm

Can someone please lead me to a discussion about Matthew 21:22

Thanks.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby mattrose » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Well, I don't know if there's been a lengthy discussion about that verse on this forum.

But it's an interesting passage and I'd like to give my 2 cents.

I think the biggest mistake we could make with Matthew 21:22 is to isolate it from its context and try to apply it as an absolute truth about prayer.

In context, I think Jesus' cursing of the fig tree was a symbolic act meant to communicate that Israel was about to whither as a nation. The same meaning is meant by the statement about the mountain (I believe 'mountain' was a reference to the city of Jerusalem). The city was soon going to be destroyed. It's current existence was mostly in opposition to the Gospel.

What Jesus is saying in Matthew 21:22, in my opinion, is that if His disciples continue to build the kingdom after His departure, God will provide them the victories He has promised over worldly opposition.

It is important to keep in mind that Jerusalem's destruction had been prophesied (and was about to be prophesied again). I don't think this statement is a blanket statement that we can just pray for anything we want. I think it is an endorsement that we can have faith that God will keep His promises. We 'believe' in something concrete and we have 'faith' in promises. When we pray for something that has not been promised we don't pray 'in faith' in my opinion. In such cases, we are just making requests. It's not bad to make requests, but it is different than pleading the promises of God.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby paulespino » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:37 pm

Thanks for your reply Mattrose.
Matt. 21:21-22
And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

1) Do you have any contextual proof that the mountain is Jerusalem?
2) It seems that the mountain is literal since the fig tree withering is literal.
3) Is it possible that Matt. 21:21-22 is literal But the success of this verse will depend on several things :
a. The faith of the believer and
b. If it is the will of God for the faithful believer to be able to move that mountain.
C. Nothing is impossible to God even if the geographical area of a mountain is changed
.
Matt you say:
We 'believe' in something concrete and we have 'faith' in promises. When we pray for something that has not been promised we don't pray 'in faith' in my opinion. In such cases, we are just making requests. It's not bad to make requests, but it is different than pleading the promises of God.

It seems.that this verse is an assurance that the mountain can be moved by faith but again it must be willed by God. The question is when will God allow a believer to be able to move a mountain we don't know perhaps a specific future event is still being orchestrated by God.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby Paidion » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:29 pm

In 1998, I took Greek summer courses at a Bible College near Winnipeg. I met a man there from Myanmar (formerly "Burma"). I befriended him and he even attended my second wedding in 1999. (My first wife died in 1997 from a rare disease). This Christian man told me that he and other Christians were challenged by a Buddhist leader, "If your Christ can do what you claim, then get him to move that mountain." (The Buddhist pointed to a particular peak). "If he can do that I'll believe in him. I want it moved over to there" (He pointed to a valley).

The Christians prayed. That night there was a major earthquake that moved the mountain to the location specified! As a result the Buddhist became a Christian.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby mattrose » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:13 pm

paulespino wrote:Thanks for your reply Mattrose.
Matt. 21:21-22
And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen. And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

1) Do you have any contextual proof that the mountain is Jerusalem?
2) It seems that the mountain is literal since the fig tree withering is literal.


I think the fact that he said 'this' mountain coupled with the topography of the area points to the mountain being the city of Jerusalem. Most ancient cities were, essentially, built on mountains (for protection). Additionally, the walls of a city made it appear even more as a mountain.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby paulespino » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:33 pm

Padion says.
The Christians prayed. That night there was a major earthquake that moved the mountain to the location specified! As a result the Buddhist became a Christian

Was this recorded in news ?

Hi Matt, so the mountain is the wordly opposition which is also Jerusalem since many persecutors of Christians are from Jerusalem?
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby Paidion » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:27 pm

Hi Paul, you wrote:Padion says.
The Christians prayed. That night there was a major earthquake that moved the mountain to the location specified! As a result the Buddhist became a Christian

Was this recorded in news ?


I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is what the Christian man from Myanmar told me.
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Re: Discussion regarding Matt..21:22?

Postby paulespino » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Thanks Paidion
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