Election Aftermath

[steve7150]

but if democracy rules, then shouldn't the will of the majority count?

The electoral votes are Hillary 228 and Donald 291. Doesn't this suggest that there may something wrong with the electoral system?
Paidion






The US is a republic with elected representatives, not a true democracy. This was part of the Founders desire to diffuse power from a centralized power base.
It gave the minority states a certain amount of power by this Electoral College and the way the Senate is set up with every state getting 2 senators regardless of population. If only the pure vote were used then a few large cities would receive all of the attention and the rest of the country would be passed over.
I think it's a brilliant system and shows amazing foresight in the minds of our Founders.

[Paidion]

It's true. I don't understand the U.S. political system.

I suppose Canada is not a "pure democracy" either. Here, each political party elects a leader. Each district elects a member of parliament who is of a particular political party. If the elected members of a particular party hold more seats in the house of commons than any other party, then the leader of that party becomes the Prime Minister of Canada. If his party holds the majority of seats, it is called a majority government. If his party does not hold the majority of seats, it is called a minority government. In the latter case, the members of other parties can defeat a government bill if more of them vote against it than those who vote for it.

[steve7150]

But a miracle? I gotta be honest... I think that's an absurd conclusion











I think if you go back to the nomination process when Trump was one of 16 candidates and i believe the only non-politician who frequently made ill thought out statements, who offended just about everybody and who had no constituency , you could make a case it's a remarkable journey at the very least!

[mattrose]

I think if you go back to the nomination process when Trump was one of 16 candidates and i believe the only non-politician who frequently made ill thought out statements, who offended just about everybody and who had no constituency , you could make a case it's a remarkable journey at the very least!

So I'm supposed to believe that because he made ill-thought out statements and was offensive yet still got the nomination and won the election... it's evidence that God did it?

I think I find it much easier to believe that he was the primaries b/c he was the most famous person among the candidates and spoke to the anger that many people were feeling. And he won the election b/c at least 25% of the nation really dislikes Hillary Clinton.

[dwight92070]

Can anyone deny that we have just witnessed a miracle?

Yes, I think almost anyone could do that quite easily.

What you witnessed is another example of the fact that Americans have been divided about 50/50 for quite a while now. You also witnessed the reality of outdated (and sometimes manipulated) polling structures. You witnessed a resurgence of nationalism, bucking the globalist trend.

Dwight speaking: So you believe that Trump's victory happened because of totally natural causes, that nothing supernatural entered into the election? If that was true, then when thousands of His people prayed fervently that Trump would win and Hillary would lose, God simply ignored our prayers and just let everything play out without any intervention. So those of us who wanted Trump to win are simply lucky?

But a miracle? I gotta be honest... I think that's an absurd conclusion

Dwight speaking: I think it is a very logical conclusion. But let's assume that you are right, that my conclusion is absurd. For you, as a pastor and a teacher, to belittle me (a fellow believer) and my conclusion is unbecoming of your position in the body of Christ. A simple disagreement statement would have been sufficient.

[mattrose]

So you believe that Trump's victory happened because of totally natural causes, that nothing supernatural entered into the election? If that was true, then when thousands of His people prayed fervently that Trump would win and Hillary would lose, God simply ignored our prayers and just let everything play out without any intervention. So those of us who wanted Trump to win are simply lucky?

Yes, I believe God allows human beings in the United States to freely elect their political leaders.

I'm sure you're aware that thousands of professing Christians were also praying that Hillary would win and Trump lose.

I don't think it is God's standard operating procedure to intervene in U.S. elections either way.

You're not lucky. You don't even outnumber Hillary supporters. You candidate just won the electoral college. No seas were parted.

I think it is a very logical conclusion. But let's assume that you are right, that my conclusion is absurd. For you, as a pastor and a teacher, to belittle me (a fellow believer) and my conclusion is unbecoming of your position in the body of Christ. A simple disagreement statement would have been sufficient.

Are you of the opinion that when someone calls another person's opinion absurd that that is a form of belittlement?

The reason I worded my counter-opinion strongly is because you came out swinging in your first line: "Can anyone deny that we have just witnessed a miracle?" which makes it sound like anyone denying such a thing is being equally absurd.

[dwight92070]

Yes, I believe God allows human beings in the United States to freely elect their political leaders.
Dwight speaking: So God had no response whatsoever to our prayers?

I'm sure you're aware that thousands of professing Christians were also praying that Hillary would win and Trump lose.
Dwight speaking: This also is illogical. Given pro-Hillary people's anti-Biblical beliefs about abortion, gay rights, lieing when caught, etc., and now their violent reaction to the election results, I doubt whether prayer is even on their radar screen.

I don't think it is God's standard operating procedure to intervene in U.S. elections either way.
Dwight speaking: I never said that it was. But I do believe that it is His SOP to answer the fervent prayers of His people, IF it is in line with His will.

You're not lucky. You don't even outnumber Hillary supporters. You candidate just won the electoral college. No seas were parted.

Are you of the opinion that when someone calls another person's opinion absurd that that is a form of belittlement?
Dwight speaking: Absurd means stupid. Yes, that is belittlement. Teachers in the body of Christ come under a stricter judgment than non-teachers. Therefore they should be very careful about how they treat other believers. Of course we all should, but the Bible gives a special warning to teachers.

The reason I worded my counter-opinion strongly is because you came out swinging in your first line: "Can anyone deny that we have just witnessed a miracle?" which makes it sound like anyone denying such a thing is being equally absurd.

Dwight speaking: I was not implying that anyone was stupid. I was making a statement of reasonable logic.

[dwight92070]

No seas were parted? A great blow has struck the "kingdoms" of the Clinton and the Obama families. This includes all the corruption and lies that they have committed. Also a great blow has struck the media and their lies, Obamacare, the abortion industry, the evil deeds of George Sauros, ISIS, and the list goes on. Of course, we must wait to finalize these victories, but they are IMO supernatural triumphs.

[mattrose]

So God had no response whatsoever to our prayers?

I believe God responds to prayers often. But we don't get to manipulate God into doing something that isn't pleasing to him just by praying in quantity.

This also is illogical. Given pro-Hillary people's anti-Biblical beliefs about abortion, gay rights, lieing when caught, etc., and now their violent reaction to the election results, I doubt whether prayer is even on their radar screen.

You must not know the large 'progressive Christian' demographic. There are LOTS of people who consider themselves Christians who believe that Hillary was either a good candidate or, at least, the lesser of two evils. I know many such people that were praying for Hillary to win.

I never said that it was. But I do believe that it is His SOP to answer the fervent prayers of His people, IF it is in line with His will.

I agree. But I have serious doubts that either Trump or Clinton being President was in line with God's will.

Absurd means stupid. Yes, that is belittlement. Teachers in the body of Christ come under a stricter judgment than non-teachers. Therefore they should be very careful about how they treat other believers. Of course we all should, but the Bible gives a special warning to teachers.

I was not implying that anyone was stupid. I was making a statement of reasonable logic.

You're just playing with words here. Absurd means unreasonable. By suggesting that your view is a statement of reasonable logic, you are simultaneously saying that my view is absurd.

What's more, I really think you need to consider the genre of a message board debate. When people debate a subject, it is necessary to make clear the areas of disagreement. I didn't use the word 'absurd' with malice intent. I was just pointing out that I considered your assumption unreasonable. You consider my rejection of it unreasonable. The problem with message boards is you end up debating someone you don't know in real life and sometimes assume the worst motives of the person you are debating. So let me be clear. I am not 'out to get you' or to 'set on disagreeing with you every time you post' nor do I think you are 'stupid'. I'm just disagreeing with you and confronting what I consider to be the worst of your arguments.

No seas were parted? A great blow has struck the "kingdoms" of the Clinton and the Obama families. This includes all the corruption and lies that they have committed. Also a great blow has struck the media and their lies, Obamacare, the abortion industry, the evil deeds of George Sauros, ISIS, and the list goes on. Of course, we must wait to finalize these victories, but they are IMO supernatural triumphs.

I would be more comforted by these thoughts if I had more confidence that Trump and the Republicans were much better. One of my issues with your view is you seem to buy into the lie that earthly politics is a great answer to the earth's problems. I consider earthly governments and political parties beastly and largely demonic.

[Homer]

I'm sure you're aware that thousands of professing Christians were also praying that Hillary would win and Trump lose.

Exit polls showed that 80% of white evangelical Christians voted for trump, whatever that's worth. I could not myself vote for either Trump or Clinton. I could not believe that early on prominent evangelicals were supporting Trump, even long before he was nominated. However, the liberals look at evangelicals with contempt, generally speaking. Trump courted them, however clumsily. To me the important thing is who will be nominated to the supreme court which usurps the democratic process and "makes law" such as legal abortion and gay marriage. The country would be changed forever (forty years, anyway) if additional liberal judges are appointed.

Additionally it appears that the government under Trump intends to allow Christians in the medical field to opt out of services that conflict with their faith.

You must not know the large 'progressive Christian' demographic. There are LOTS of people who consider themselves Christians who believe that Hillary was either a good candidate or, at least, the lesser of two evils. I know many such people that were praying for Hillary to win.

I do not see how they could support someone who believes a baby can be ripped apart and slaughtered within minutes of birth. That practice is wickedness IMO and inexcusable.