Your thoughts on 2 men, Trump and Osteen

[dwight92070]

Is it possible that God could be using Donald Trump like He did Cyrus in the Old Testament to bring about good things for the people of God? I can see this happening. The country may not be willing to put an overt, strong, Christian in office, such as Cruz, but they may be willing to put in a man who says he will do what they seem to want. And at least from my perspective, I agree with most of the things that he says he will do, which, in my opinion, line up with Biblical values.

How about Joel Osteen? He appears to me to be a false prophet, preaching much the same, if not the same, message that the Word of Faith people do, which I believe is a heresy. He is always smiling, always loving, always positive. He comes across so wholesome and good.

Dwight

[steve7150]

Is it possible that God could be using Donald Trump like He did Cyrus in the Old Testament to bring about good things for the people of God? I can see this happening. The country may not be willing to put an overt, strong, Christian in office, such as Cruz, but they may be willing to put in a man who says he will do what they seem to want. And at least from my perspective, I agree with most of the things that he says he will do, which, in my opinion, line up with Biblical values.

How about Joel Osteen? He appears to me to be a false prophet, preaching much the same, if not the same, message that the Word of Faith people do, which I believe is a heresy. He is always smiling, always loving, always positive. He comes across so wholesome and good.








Osteen is Word of Faith "Lite" sort of Diet Word of Faith, only half the fat and calories. I've thought about the Trump issue and I have a feeling he is meant to win but what for I don't know.

[morbo3000]

Is it possible that God could be using Donald Trump like He did Cyrus in the Old Testament to bring about good things for the people of God?...I agree with most of the things that he says he will do, which, in my opinion, line up with Biblical values.

This sheds a lot of light on how you interpret the Bible.

[Homer]

Morbo wrote:

dwight92070 wrote:
Is it possible that God could be using Donald Trump like He did Cyrus in the Old Testament to bring about good things for the people of God?...I agree with most of the things that he says he will do, which, in my opinion, line up with Biblical values.

This sheds a lot of light on how you interpret the Bible.

Could you explain your comment further? I do not know whether your view of Dwight's comment is negative or positive. I understand Dwight as saying God is involved in the affairs of men providentially and can use bad men (not judging Trump in particular, he is not the only sinner running for President) to accomplish his will, just as He has done with many others:

Romans 9:17 (NASB)

17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

[dwight92070]

Morbo,

I believe I interpret the Bible to mean what it says that it means. I assume you that you do the same. Obviously, we will not always come to the same conclusions. On those issues, I suppose one of us is wrong or both of us are wrong. Trump believes ISIS should be killed. That agrees with the Bible that murderers should be killed. Trump believes we should build a wall on the Mexican border. That agrees with the Bible on several points. The immigration laws should be enforced, as all laws should be. Those who are here illegally should be deported, because they are in a continual state of breaking the law. There is also the Biblical principle that a house divided will not stand. We cannot allow lawbreakers to remain in the country with lawkeepers or our country will not stand. Trump believes that we should support and strenthen our police force and our military, which agrees with Romans 13 on God given authorities. Trump believes that abortions should not be paid for by our tax dollars. Obviously, that agrees with the Bible on not supporting murder. Trump believes that Obamacare should be repealed. That agrees with the Bible. It was illegally crammed down our throats to begin with. The Bible forbids stealing but Obamacare wants to force us to buy insurance, whether we want it or not, and then if we don't, Obamacare will fine us. That is thievery and extortion. Trump wants to support Israel, which is Biblical because Israel is the one of the few freedom loving countries in the middle east. Trump wants to repeal all of Obama's executive orders, which agrees with the Bible, because many of those orders are lawless, i.e. they go against the Constitution.

Trump is not sinless, nor are any of the candidates, but at this point, it looks like he has the best chance of beating Hillary. I prefer Cruz, because of his Christian character, but don't think he can beat Hillary. I am committed to voting for whoever the Republican candidate is.

Dwight

[morbo3000]

Dwight.

I disagree with everything you just said about Drumph and the Bible. He is a fascist, and the furthest from Jesus and The Kingdom of God that any political leader could be.

I believe I interpret the Bible to mean what it says that it means. I assume you that you do the same.

To be clear, since you seem shocked by my opinions sometimes. I believe we should let the Bible say what it says, not what we want it to say. That begins by accepting its historical conditionedness. [sic] We can't lift a sentence out of this Psalm, and compare it against that sentence from Paul, and claim to make a theological statement. That Psalm was written in a very specific time, by a very specific author who may or may not be David. In order to understand it, you have to listen to what it says about the time and author who wrote it. Same with Paul, or any other author who may or may not have written the sentence or book or letter you quote.

So yes. I interpret the Bible to mean what it says it means. I don't assume revelation or inspiration, or inerrancy to do that. But those beliefs are not necessary to ask the simple question: "What does this sentence mean." And "How do we compare this sentence to that sentence." In that respect we could not be farther apart.

[Paidion]

Trump believes ISIS should be killed.

He also believes that no refugees from Muslim countries should be allowed into the United States, in case there might be spies or terrorists among them.
In general these refugees are needy people. They need food and clothing. Immigration officials should be able to screen them for possible terrorists or spies.

Jesus taught (as recorded in Matthew 25):

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[steve7150]

He also believes that no refugees from Muslim countries should be allowed into the United States, in case there might be spies or terrorists among them.
In general these refugees are needy people. They need food and clothing. Immigration officials should be able to screen them for possible terrorists or spies.






True these refugees are needy people, as is 20% of the world. They do need food and clothing but so do many people here too. Immigration can not screen them because they have no papers
so whoever we let in , we are simply gambling the safety of our citizens.
The problem for me is not the muslim people per se but that the religion they practice is an aggressive religion that has as it's goal, world domination. I have not read the Quran or Hadith but according to many ex-muslims who are now Christians, that's how they describe it. Also if you look at muslim countries eventually every other religion is stamped out. Even in so called moderate muslim countries like Morocco , it's still 99% Islamic. Non muslims are not allowed in mosques which gives a clue about how they view non muslims. Women barely have more rights then cattle.
I know Jesus said to love your enemies and I try but I don't think putting the current and future safety of our loved ones, friends and neighbors is being as wise as a serpent.

[dwight92070]

Morbo,

By your "method" of interpretation, you could make it say anything you want. And since you don't assume revelation, or inspiration, or inerrancy in the Bible, then who cares what it means? If it's not the revealed word of God, inerrant and inspired, then we all might as well eat, drink, and be merry, because it would be totally irrelevant. I thought all Christians believed those things about the Bible, but I guess not.

Dwight

[morbo3000]

By your "method" of interpretation, you could make it say anything you want.

It is the opposite. My method of interpretation requires me to let the text say exactly what it does. Not what I want it to say. This is the predictable push-back against biblical scholarship. That it is used to undermine the word of god so that the scholar can make it support his view. It's the other way around. The scholar is obligated to determine what the text actually says, and not be bound to a creed that would hinder his interpretation. Not that we are perfect at it. But it's the goal.

The fundamentalist, on the other hand, goes to the text with a pre-determined theology and looks for support for that theology. And of course finds it. Because the Bible will faithfully reflect back to us whatever prejudices we bring to it. Which is exactly what it does for you. Your accusation points right back to yourself. You make the Bible say what you want. Not what it says.

And since you don't assume revelation, or inspiration, or inerrancy in the Bible, then who cares what it means? If it's not the revealed word of God, inerrant and inspired, then we all might as well eat, drink, and be merry, because it would be totally irrelevant.

This always fascinates me. Underneath the surface, do you really just want to live a debauched life? Is your holy book all that keeps you from being a gluttonous fool? That's certainly not true for me. Nor the other faithful Christians who do not hold to your view of the Bible.