"Chance" and Sovereignty

[Paidion]

Did you ever find out about what C`s friend went on to do?
ie did subsequent events further confirm things?

No. I never heard anything about the "prophet" since.

Why did you put out fleeces?

Why did Gideon put out fleeces? According to the record in Judges 6, he "knew" that God had said He would save Israel by his hand. Yet Gideon needed confirmation.

I thought Jesus told us we would know false prophets by their fruits, not by putting out multiple fleeces.

That's fine. If you can do that with certainty, the more power to you. I don't have that much confidence in my discernment. In the cases I mentioned, I needed confirmation.

Also, Steve has clearly taught us that the fruits mentioned there refer to their words and their teaching, not necessarily the fruit of the Spirit.

How is that fact relevant to the matter?

[morbo3000]

This was really more of an intellectual exercise, which might be stated like this:
- If we see biblical examples of godly people using lots to seek and obtain clear decisions from God, and
- If we believe the Bible when it says every turn of the die is from the Lord, and
- If God cannot lie
Then can it be said that the result of a cast of a die can be anything other than a revealing of the will of the Lord? And if we are truly at a crossroads in which we are unable to discern a moral reason to choose but feel an answer from the Lord would be helpful, can such an action be taken? Not as a way to "force" God to answer, or to "corner" God, but to say, "Have Your way, Lord."

God will have his way regardless. The idea of God's sovereignty is that His will is found in every eventuality. It is God's will regardless of which direction the die is cast. Or whether it is cast at all. If it is heads, it would have always been heads. If it is tails, it would have always been tails. If I turn left without casting the die, that's where God was leading. If I turn right, after casting the die, that's where God was leading.

Ultimately, I think that God trusts us with decisions. And doesn't need us to resort to lots.

[dizerner]

Paidon

Why did you put out fleeces? I thought Jesus told us we would know false prophets by their fruits, not by putting out multiple fleeces. Also, Steve has clearly taught us that the fruits mentioned there refer to their words and their teaching, not necessarily the fruit of the Spirit.

Dwight

What's more puzzling to me is why he hasn't put a fleece out to see if Moses was an accurate or false prophet.

[dwight92070]

Paidon,

Gideon was faced with a life or death situation, not only for him but for the thousands he would lead into battle. I don't think your determining whether this man was true or false was quite that critical.

You don't trust your own discernment? You seem to discern the words spoken on the forum every day, as to whether they are true or not.

It's not relevant to you that the fruits spoken of refer to the words and the teachings of the person being analyzed? Well, if you already knew that fact, then why respond to my stating it at all, other than to chide me for doing so? If you didn't know it, as a person who loves truth, I would think you would gladly receive it.

I am sorry that my words seem to irritate you and that you have to jump on every one of them.

Dwight

[Paidion]

I have shared with you all two special relations of intimacy between my Lord and me, in which He has graciously and clearly revealed false prophets to me.

These revelations were two rare instances in my life, in my relationship with God, and are very precious. I thought I could trust the folks on this forum to appreciate them. But I feel I have been dealt hurtful slaps in the face. Had I known that to be the reaction, I would never have shared these incidents.

Dwight, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never been irritated by your words or "jumped on every one of them."
When I asked how Steve's teaching was relevant to the subject, I really wanted to know. In no way, did I imply that his teaching was irrelevant to me.

May the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Altogether Lovely One, be with us all!

[dwight92070]

Paidon,

Please forgive me if my comments came across as slaps in the face. I was curious as to why you used fleeces, but it was not my desire to insult or hurt you or to belittle your experiences.

Dwight

[Ian]

Thanks for sharing your two stories, Paidion.

[Paidion]

Dwight, if you think you have done wrong, then I forgive you with all my heart! If not, then there is nothing to forgive.

[BlackUmbrella]

I truly think the appropriateness of seeking these types of confirmations from God varies by the person and situation, as I think it is very hard to condemn them unless the indecisiveness is on a very clear biblical point (such as, "Lord, please let me know by the flip of this coin whether or not I should cheat on my wife.") Although, if an unsaved person made such an appeal, I would not put it past God to spare him from sin and draw him to faith in Jesus by such means.

I recall reading an autobiography by a reformed (and convicted) murderer who said she used something like this, laying out an item and asking God to prove to her that He exists by removing the item overnight or something. She came to faith in Christ when the item vanished. Would such a method be suitable for a person for whom God has already given previous proofs or who knows his Word? I do not think so. But for her? Hey, she was desperate, broken and weak, and I think God has a heart for the desperate, broken and weak.

I do not plan to make any life decisions according to casting dice, as I believe that if I am unable to discern any scriptural benefit or detriment from my decision, that I am free to choose. I just think it is a rare instance of the "rubber meeting the road" in a very simple way in terms of a logical endpoint of our theological positions.

[Homer]

Okey, I will confess to my long ago occasion, and only occasion, when I "put out a fleece". I was blessed with a good income at the time. As I passed by an auto dealer's car lot I spotted a used luxury car. Long having a weakness for cars beyond their functional use for transportation, I stopped in and talked to a salesman who I discovered was a Christian of the charismatic type. As we talked and I was undecided, he encouraged me to put out a fleece. Well, I went home and thought about what I might do. Didn't need the car but we owned some stock through my employer at the time and it hadn't appreciated much at all. I could sell half and buy the car. But what would God want me to do? We did regularly give to the church and to World Vision for the poor, among other things such as missions. So I thought I would pray hard about what I should do. I would then flip a coin and ask God to decide. One side of the coin would be to do nothing; if the other side came up I would sell half the stock, give more than a tithe of the funds to World Vision, and buy the car. The side came up to buy the car, and I did, and made the donation to World Vision. The car turned out to be a lemon. The stock I sold increased enormously in value over the years after I sold it. But did you notice what I did? I did not give God the choice He most likely preferred: give the donation to World Vision and do not buy the car. I should have realized that without the fleece.