Pentecostal Language

[john6809]

Jaydam, I see this in much the same way as you. One can have all the faith in the world in God's ability to heal and still say, "Your will be done." I don't see God as the great dispenser of all things that I could possibly want. He is not obligated to fulfil all that I think is good. He sees what I can't and knows what I don't know.

I think of a good parent, withholding what a child thinks is a great thing. Later, when the child is grown, they recognize the wisdom in it. I wonder why Paul couldn't heal Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20 - Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick?

[TK]

Would you rather your child "ask your permission" every time he wants to do something good, or would you rather hear how your child took the initiative at school and protected the special needs kid from the bully?

I think God tires of us continually asking him, and he is often saying "just do it!"

[john6809]

That's not really an accurate comparison, TK. First of all, standing up for the defenseless is something that a modestly well trained child should already know is the right thing to do. In the case of healing, we don't know if it is always the most advantageous thing for the sufferer to be healed. Secondly, the ability to defend the special needs child is already within the abilities of the defender. Maybe he/she can't "win the fight", but they can fight. In the case of healing, the ability to do it is not within us. Therefore, I submit, there is a requirement to ask God to do what we cannot.

Regards ,
John

[Paidion]

Thus, just as Christ petitioned that the cup might be taken from him, but if not that is ok too...

That's a good point, Jaydam!

Matthew 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

[TK]

John- I think you missed my point- I just used the bully as an example of my point- that there is no need to ask God to do good things. I don't see Jesus and the apostles wondering if they should heal someone.

So my default position MUST be that healing is a good thing.

I cannot even imagine telling someone who is sick or hurting- "sorry, God told me not to pray for your healing."

Oswald Chambers says something along the lines that if you are walking with the Lord you ARE the will of God.

[john6809]

TK, I understood your point. I guess I just don't agree. You obviously have much more confidence in your knowledge of God's will for people. From my understanding and experience, suffering is (or can be if one doesn't suffer in vain) sometimes good for our spiritual development.

The new testament doesn't seem to document any cases where the apostles and wondered how they should pray. This doesn't mean that they defaulted to praying for every single sick person to be healed. And, there is no need to tell a person that you aren't praying for them to be healed. As Jaydam stated, and I agreed, I can pray for a person's healing and still leave the decision up to God.

[TK]

Then why pray at all? If God is going to do what He wants regardless, why bother? Where is the faith in that?


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[john6809]

Why do children ask for things? They dont know whether they will receive what they ask for but they still do. It seems evident that the Lord does change His mind at our request from time to time. But when He has determined that our requests are not for the best, then I would defer to His sovereignty. It seems to me that it takes as much faith to accept a 'No' or 'Not now' answer and still trust His goodness as it does to make a request in the first place.

If it is the default position that God answers our prayers for healing, then why do people still stay sick? How often is sickness the path for exiting this life? If a person had enough faith and enough people offering faith-filled prayer, might they live forever? Why not? What is the magic age where a sickness is allowed to be the cause of death?

[TK]

Obviously not everyone is healed and I don't throw a tantrum or anything when they are not.

But it is very difficult to pray from a position of faith (which seems to be a prerequisite per scripture) when I think that my praying is not much use. If I do not believe that I can move God to act, then my prayer is in vain.

"Beware in your prayers, above everything else, of limiting God, not only by unbelief, but by fancying that you know what He can do. Expect unexpected things 'above all that we ask or think.'" Andrew Murray

[Homer]

Then why pray at all? If God is going to do what He wants regardless, why bother? Where is the faith in that?

That would be terribly sad to think, as a child, that it was no use to request anything from your father. But then the Calvinist, who believes everything has been determined, thinks that way about God.

But there is hope in prayer:

Exodus 32

11. Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12. Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14. So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

2 Kings 20

20. In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’” 2. Then he turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3. “Remember now, O Lord, I beseech You, how I have walked before You in truth and with a whole heart and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5. “Return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of your father David, “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6. I will add fifteen years to your life, and I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake and for My servant David’s sake.”’” 7. Then Isaiah said, “Take a cake of figs.” And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

James 5:16
16. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.


I see nothing wrong at all in humbly petitioning God to change His mind.