The Flat Earth & Conspiracy Theories

[Singalphile]

My time is short. Want to comment on vaccination:

I didn't think about that one. I'm not sure that Christians are particularly into that one. Personal anecdote: My non-Christian brother is into various conspiracy theories, but the medical profession is one of his main ones. He is anti-vaccinations, and he thinks that most medical doctors are know-nothings (at best). If I remember right, he thinks that there is no such thing as genetic disease. The "elites" know all of this, he thinks. He is very intelligent, smarter than me for sure, a high school valedictorian and Stanford university graduate (though possibly drugs and alcohol have impaired him to some extent).

[crgfstr1]

I would agree with your brother. There is a reason that our education system is far more about memorize and regurgitate then it is about understanding and logic. I remember taking an IQ test and seeing things that were very wrong to me. There was one that was something like: of the four items pictured which 3 match "best". 1) a bowl 2) a spoon 3) a fork 4) a ladle. The answer they wanted was that humans have labeled spoon, fork and ladle as utensils. However a bowl, spoon and ladle are designed to hold liquids while a fork isn't. A bowl, spoon, and fork are typically used while eating while the ladle is primarily for making and serving food. There is no "best" answer unless you know the criteria you are judging something to be best.

Is there any evidence or testing that even suggests that our current vaccine schedule is effective? No. Is there even any testing that it is safe? No. How does it compare to other countries like Canada who give far less than half the vaccines we do at a much slower rate? Why would the first vaccine I give my infant be for a disease that can only be spread through blood transfusion or sexual activity? The answer from those in favor of vaccines is that the issue has been settled. Leave the science to the scientist.

I played a game in my social studies class when I was in high school. We were all provided chips that were worth certain values and having multiple of the same colored chips was worth more. At the end of every certain amount of time the richest 10% of the people got to make the rules for the next round. We didn't have to tell the others what the new rules were. I started out with a "middle class" amount of chips but manage trade well enough to be in the top 10%. I convinced the group to reverse the value of the colors and add additional value for having more of the same color beyond the original 5 we had been given. It was very easy at this point to trick others into trading chips that they were thought of less value. Stealing had started taking place at that point and people were asking the teachers if that was allowed. They said "I don't know. Is that one of the rules?". I ended up being either the "richest" player or very near the top. I considered this a game and that wasn't breaking any rules so my normal moral convictions didn't apply. Maybe they should have but it taught me a valuable lesson to see just what would happen if they were turned off for just a little while. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely unless you are prefect like God which is why he should be in charge of all things.

Consider if your life long belief was merely survival of the fittest. Now consider that your life held belief was the you and a few of those around were the fittest and all others were a distraction and risk that they might accidentally destroy some that are more fit then themselves. What if technology were advanced enough that all others weren't needed for your survival? Would it be right to do away with those that are risking the survival of the fittest because of our silly ideals that we should protect those that are less fit? Aren't we messing with "progress" by keeping the unfit around with us? It doesn't take a true conspiracy to go down this path that is a doctrine of the devil.

While there are fools on both sides of the debate insulting one or the others side in lack of critical thinking stops critical thinking. Most of what you "know" is really something that you believe on faith. I have never done a study on vaccines myself so I know nothing. There is plenty of evidence that "scientist" have been extremely wrong time and time again and pushed things as safe that weren't. Most aren't doing the experiments themselves and are only memorizing and regurgitating what they have been told. Their entire lives they have been rewarded and told how smart they are for the memorization and regurgitation skills. I have fallen in this trap myself. I have listened to and repeated nutrition advice that was later proven to be extremely wrong. Most prescribed drugs are only tested for changing certain number that can be measured not on whether or not they make most people live longer. For the few test that have been done on making people live longer most drugs fail.

The trick in the deception is to misdirect the people into that which is true but not important. It is one of the devils most common devices.

[morbo3000]

crgfstr1,

There is a reason that our education system is far more about memorize and regurgitate then it is about understanding and logic.

You are confusing education with peer-reviewed studies. Those are apples and oranges. Professors don't interpret the data. They teach. Researchers draw conclusions from the data. The process is rigorous. And then agencies like the CDC (but not limited to the CDC... other nations have other agencies) make recommendations based on the data. And this is where the conspiracy theories come in. People will say that the conclusions are politically motivated. But that is simply not the case. Peer-review means it's up to other scientists to confirm the data. And those scientists are not constrained by geographic borders. To imagine that the college of international scientists has conspired against humanity to falsely promote vaccines is absurd.

Most importantly, the efficacy of vaccines is overwhelming. My magnitudes of scale.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherp ... our-world/

http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/n ... 47.article

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-a ... eness.html

Is there any evidence or testing that even suggests that our current vaccine schedule is effective? No. Is there even any testing that it is safe? No.

Yes. There is.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/inf ... ccine.html

How does it compare to other countries like Canada who give far less than half the vaccines we do at a much slower rate?

This article describes the differences in schedules between other nations who have different schedules. Though it does not include Canada.

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immuniza ... istics.htm

The answer from those in favor of vaccines is that the issue has been settled. Leave the science to the scientist.

That's conspiracy thinking.

[morbo3000]

My research on the subject lead me to see all of the holes in the theory and the control it gives certain people and why they push these lies. It is in large part why I have been returning to the faith I had when I was young but with a better ability to understand (hopefully) as an adult.

It is awesome that you are returning to the faith! I may have missed it in another thread. Where did you come from, where did you go, and how did you get to where you are now?

I commend you to broaden the scope of your research beyond young-earth creationism. They will encourage you to believe people who have researched natural selection are people who "push lies."

The best place you could go is Biologos. http://biologos.org

We can't keep the Bible's version of creation and evolution and simply say that it was longer than 6 days and the days weren't literal. The order of creation would still be wrong in the Bible if macro evolution were true. I used to think that they could be compatible until I did some research on the subject. They aren't at all compatible so if you believe Darwin's full form of Evolution then where is your stance on the Bible's accuracy?

It's important to understand that different books of the bible are written in different types of style and genre. History, parable, song, metaphor and simile, visions, etc. The genre of the book of Genesis, particularly the first 11 chapters, is not likely history. That doesn't make it unimportant. It makes it important for things other than the dating of fossil records. Believing that macro-evolution is the best theory we have does not put it at odds with faith. It doesn't contradict Genesis. It contradicts a particular way of reading Genesis that I don't believe is in keeping with its genre.

[crgfstr1]

c

Is there any evidence or testing that even suggests that our current vaccine schedule is effective? No. Is there even any testing that it is safe? No.

Yes. There is.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/inf ... ccine.html

They only test the safety of each vaccine by itself. What I specifically said is there are no tests on the schedule of vaccines. The number of vaccines that we are given now versus when I was a child has at least quadrupled. While at the same time only a few new diseases are added. For the most part it is repeating the same vaccines more than they used to without and evidence that this helps anything at all.

[dizerner]

Believing that macro-evolution is the best theory we have does not put it at odds with faith. It doesn't contradict Genesis. It contradicts a particular way of reading Genesis that I don't believe is in keeping with its genre.

How would it harmonize with original sin and a federal head of humanity?

[crgfstr1]

crgfstr1,

There is a reason that our education system is far more about memorize and regurgitate then it is about understanding and logic.

You are confusing education with peer-reviewed studies.

That wasn't my point and it has nothing to with vaccines. It has to do with our education system in general that produces doctors. Our entire education system is designed to make good employees and good citizens who believe and do what they are told without question. Over time more of the education of doctors have focused on knowing medicine. There are fewer and fewer doctors who understand a holistic system that makes up the body. Most peer reviewed studies are paid for by big pharmacy corporations and the data is skewed to get the answers they want. Without good data the having peers review it still leads to garbage in garbage out.

[morbo3000]

Most peer reviewed studies are paid for by big pharmacy corporations and the data is skewed to get the answers they want. Without good data the having peers review it still leads to garbage in garbage out.

I would be interested to see qualitative evidence of that.

[morbo3000]

Believing that macro-evolution is the best theory we have does not put it at odds with faith. It doesn't contradict Genesis. It contradicts a particular way of reading Genesis that I don't believe is in keeping with its genre.

How would it harmonize with original sin and a federal head of humanity?

That is a huge problem. You and I (and others) have discussed this on the board.

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5050

Christianity Today had an issue devoted to this problem that I thought was very well done. In the previous thread, I linked to a copy of the Christianity Today article in my dropbox folder. It has since expired. If anyone requests it, I'll put it back up.

I do agree with G.K. Chesterton that "original sin is the most obvious of all Christian doctrines." You don't need a historical Adam to demonstrate that.

But I don't think either Christianity or research should acquiesce to the other as the sole arbiter of truth. Fundamentalists and atheists claim opposite turf in that battle. And I also don't believe they should be separated from each other re: Stephen Jay Gould's non-overlapping magisteria. Rather, they should be wrestled with hand in hand.

[crgfstr1]

That's conspiracy thinking.

Do you believe in Satan? What do you think he has been up to for the last 2000 years? If you start looking at things in that light makes it more obvious how even good people have been duped into some really wrong beliefs. He has been around a lot longer than all of us and we start out being taught many things that he made up by people who were also born and taught those things without thinking about them.