Two Ways of Justification?

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Paidion
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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 pm

Homer wrote:We will be judged according to what we have done for the purpose of receiving rewards. This is well attested in the scriptures.
According to Romans 2:6-10, everyone will be judged according to his works for the purpose of receiving either eternal life or wrath and fury—either glory, honour, and well-being or affliction and anguish.

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:05 pm

Hi Paidion,

Is responding in large letters a form of yelling? ;)
According to Romans 2:6-10, everyone will be judged according to his works for the purpose of receiving either eternal life or wrath and fury—either glory, honour, and well-being or affliction and anguish.
When I wrote "We will be judged according to what we have done for the purpose of receiving rewards" the "we" was intended to be a reference to those in Christ only; they are those who face no condemnation. Those not in Christ will be judged by law as Paul has made clear: special revelation or natural law. And none of them will be found innocent. Their judgment does not preclude mercy as God sees fit.

It seems to me the "works" at judgment demonstrate opposition to and rejection of Christ on the one hand or allegience to Him on the other.

Please give us your view of how judgment by works will be done. Do you believe that by performing to a certain level puts God in our debt and that He will "owe" eternal life to some? Do you believe that if our good outweighs our bad we will receive eternal life? On "doing our best" (which none, with one exception, has ever done). How do you see judgment being done? What does Paul's affirmation that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus mean to you regarding all who die in Christ?

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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:27 pm

Is responding in large letters a form of yelling?
It wasn't my intention. I simply copied it from a file which I had saved. The text was large and easier to read with my old eyes.
When I wrote "We will be judged according to what we have done for the purpose of receiving rewards" the "we" was intended to be a reference to those in Christ only; they are those who face no condemnation.
The passage I quoted indicates that that EVERYONE (a little yell) will be judged according to his works. No special dispensation is given for "those in Christ."
Please give us your view of how judgment by works will be done.
I don't hold any view as to the logistics. I go by what Paul said in the passage I quoted.
Do you believe that by performing to a certain level puts God in our debt and that He will "owe" eternal life to some?
That is a strange concept. I don't believe that God owes anyone anything. Paul states only what God will do, by rewarding those who do will, and by exercising wrath and fury toward those who don't (which as I see it from other scriptures is for the purpose of reformation).
Do you believe that if our good outweighs our bad we will receive eternal life?
I see nothing in the scriptures about that. I think in the passage quoted, Paul refers to the general life style. If it's a life style of well-doing, seeking glory, honour, and immortality from God, then he will attain life. If not he will endure a difficult correction.
On "doing our best" (which none, with one exception, has ever done).
I'm not convinced of that.
How do you see judgment being done?
Again, I know not the logistics. I don't think it has been revealed.
What does Paul's affirmation that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus mean to you regarding all who die in Christ?
As you know the words in Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus," is followed by the words "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" in many manuscripts, and is found in the NKJV. That implies that they "persevere in well-doing" as Paul wrote in the passage I quoted.
Also to give this statement context, we should note that in Romans 7, Paul indicates that a person who is NOT in Christ may attempt to live righteously, but fails. He can serve God only in his mind, but "the law of sin" results in his inability to truly serve God. However, in Romans 8, Paul shows that "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" has made those in Christ "free from the law of sin and death." Those in Christ have the ability to work righteousness. If through faith they appropriate the enabling grace provided through Christ's sacrificial death, it will train them "to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives."

So Paul is consistent in all of his teaching concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus making available the ability to live righteous lives. If we appropriate this, we will "persevere in well-doing and receive eternal life" (Romans 2). If not, will will face the wrath of God for our correction, and that may be pretty uncomfortable!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by dizerner » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:32 pm

I'm not convinced of that.
It's a rare Christian that doesn't realize they fall short in some way.

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Homer
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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Homer » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:57 pm

Paidion,

The gist of what you wrote regarding the judgment:
The passage I quoted indicates that that EVERYONE (a little yell) will be judged according to his works. No special dispensation is given for "those in Christ."

That is a strange concept. I don't believe that God owes anyone anything. Paul states only what God will do, by rewarding those who do will, and by exercising wrath and fury toward those who don't (which as I see it from other scriptures is for the purpose of reformation).

...Paul refers to the general life style. If it's a life style of well-doing, seeking glory, honour, and immortality from God, then he will attain life. If not he will endure a difficult correction.
I do not see how you can maintain that the final judgment will be based solely on what people have done, good or bad, with nothing else being considered. Otherwise, good people of all religions will be saved, and there are many of them. There are also good people who are atheists/agnostics.

Something you may have overlooked from your scripture quotes:

7. to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8. but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Would you not agree that obeying the truth or, conversely, rejecting the truth (which amounts to rejection of Christ), is of great importance?

1 Peter 1:22 (NASB)

22. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,


Pardon my little yells, but I wanted to make sure you did not miss my point. ;)

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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:38 am

Dizerner wrote:It's a rare Christian that doesn't realize they fall short in some way.
Falling short in some way seems to be rather different from failing to do one's best.

It seems probable that a person who does his best may still fall short.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by dizerner » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:46 am

If there was something we could have done, and we didn't do it, then it's really inescapable that we didn't do our best.

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Paidion
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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:09 pm

dizerner wrote:If there was something we could have done, and we didn't do it, then it's really inescapable that we didn't do our best
.

I could have made a sarcastic remark to someone today, but I didn't do it. Clearly that fact doesn't imply that I didn't do my best; rather it supports the possibility that I did do my best today.

However, I'm sure you didn't mean what you said. My guess is that you meant:
If there was something we should have done, and we didn't do it, then it's really inescapable that we didn't do our best
.

However, I think even that statement is false. Maybe I did my best in an attempt to do what I should have done, but for some reason or other was unsuccessful.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Re: Two Ways of Justification?

Post by Paidion » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:06 pm

Greetings Homer,
You wrote:Would you not agree that obeying the truth or, conversely, rejecting the truth (which amounts to rejection of Christ), is of great importance?
Yes, I agree that submission to Christ is of great importance, but in the Romans 2 passage, Paul gives a different converse to being "persuaded of the truth" than this. He doesn't say that rejection of Christ is the antithesis of being persuaded by the truth, but rather being persuaded by wickedness is the opposite.

...but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

However, the passage from Peter which you quoted gives the basis of being able to work righteousness, that basis being regeneration. This is a fact which I have never denied but rather upheld, having explained such in my writing The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, as well as elsewhere in this forum that the very purpose of Christ's sacrifice is to deliver us from sins (acts which harm others or ourselves).

Having purified yourselves by your listening to the truth with the goal of a sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, having been regenerated not of perishable seed but of imperishable through the living and remaining Word of God. (1 Peter 1:22,23)

If we have been regenerated through Christ, we have God's enabling grace (Titus 2) by which we may possess brotherly love and accomplish various acts of righteousness while rejecting wrongdoing. If you are simply saying that submission to Christ and regeneration through Him is necessary for consistent righteousness, I wholeheartedly agree. Yet it is the case that some of the non-regenerate often perform acts of righteousness also, some even giving their lives in order to save others. Jesus said that there was no greater love than that.

Notwithstanding the importance of regeneration, we ought nevertheless recognize the apostle's teaching in Romans two that EVERYONE, regenerate and non-regenerate, will be judged according to their works. In my opinion, this may not refer to the works themselves as much as the character that results from practising these works.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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