Well said, Doulos!
Or one could say that it is abolutely necessary to be a "mathatas Christou", indeed even a "doulos Christou" in order to qualify as one of the faithful ---- yes?
The Meaning of Faith (Pistis)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Faith is something I have been thinking a lot about lately, so finding this thread gave me the motivation to finally register and make a post. I find Homer’s opening post to be interesting as it fits pretty well with what I am coming to understand regarding faith, which is this: To have faith means simply to believe that God will do what He has promised to do.
Consider how faith is used when we talk about faith in things other than God. We talk about having faith in a spouse. This means that we trust them to live up to the vows (promises) they made at the wedding. An unfaithful spouse is one who has broken those promises. I think it is also appropriate to express faith in inanimate objects like a car, a boat, or a bridge. The bridge is an interesting one to think about. I often drive over a bridge that, if it were to fail, would likely kill me should I happen to be on it when it did so, yet I drive over it without any qualms. I would describe my faith in that bridge to be “strong” based on this experience. Several factors have influenced my opinion of this bridge. Its origin (I assume it was designed by a qualified engineer), its history (countless vehicles have crossed it, some much larger than mine), personal testimony of others who have used the bridge, and personal experience with this and other bridges all play into the basis of my faith in this object to do what it “promises” to do (i.e. take me over the river into downtown). I would also say that I both “trust” and “believe in” this bridge to do what it promises to do based on this same experience, which shows how similar these concepts are.
The question now is whether or not this concept of faith is aligned with scriptural faith in God. In my opinion, it is. For example:
Heb 11:11
By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered Him faithful who had made the promise.
Notice Abraham believed God because he considered Him faithful to keep His promise.
Check out 2 Cor 1:18-20.
18 But as God is faithful, our word to you was not Yes and No.
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
(NKJ)
Paul is defending his decision not to visit the Corinthians and is essentially saying, “We are faithful to do what we promise, just like God.” Being faithful means you keep your promises.
Doulos mentioned the time in Num 20 when Moses struck the rock rather than spoke to the rock as he was commanded. I think God reprimanded him for not believing God would make water flow with only words as He promised (“How could he possibly do that? God needed me to strike the rock the last time.”). Moses decided to “help” God make good on His promise to make water flow.
2 Cor 5:5-9
5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7 We live by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please Him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
In the context Paul is talking about our being clothed with our heavenly bodies if our earthly bodies are destroyed. We know this will happen because He has given us the Holy Spirit as evidence of this fact. Therefore our actions reflect what we know will come to pass, and this is called living by faith. This is not “blind” faith (faith without basis). In fact, one of the primary purposes of the Bible is to testify to God’s faithfulness to keep his promises. John says in John 20:30-31:
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.
Similarly, we show that God is faithful to keep His promises about the future through our testimony of what God has done backed up our actions.
The Holy Spirit has a similar role, and this is one area where I think belief in God is different than our belief in e.g. the trustworthiness of a bridge. The nature of belief is similar in both cases, but the evidence is different (one has a spiritual aspect to it, the other does not).
This concept of faith also plays in well with the non-Calvinist view of faith not being a meritorious work or something to brag about. What is the basis for my faith? Is it not the character of the object of that faith? I have faith in my spouse because she has proven to be faithful. It is my natural response to her good character. The same is true for God. I have faith in Him because His character demands it. Going back to my bridge example, some might even describe a refusal to drive over the bridge as being irrational based on the bridge’s track record. Those of us who know the character of God would say the same thing about someone who refuses to have faith in Him.
Notice also how I have used the word faithfulness throughout my discussion? It seems that faithfulness is not the result of faith but rather the cause of faith. In other words I have faith in God because He is faithful. I have trust the bridge because it is trustworthy. My faithfulness to keep my promises would result in people having faith in me. As I said before one of God’s primary purposes for the Bible is to provide a basis for faith by recording God’s faithfulness to keep His promises. It also tells us what His promises are, so we aren’t in the dark about that.
Consider also the link between faith and works in my definition of faith. Some promises require or result in action. The bridge I have described promises to take me over the river into town, so my faith in the bridge is tested when I need to get to or from town. If I trust (have faith in) the bridge, I will use it. If not, I will drive 25 miles out of my way to get to the next bridge that will take me over the river. If I don’t use the bridge (despite my need to do so), I prove that any claimed faith in the bridge is only so much hot air. Faith is not too important where there is no need; e.g. It doesn’t matter if I trust the bridge if I don’t want to cross the river. I may have faith in the bridge, but it isn’t “needed” until I have use of what it promises. The nature of the promises of God, however, is such that the Christian is in a constant state of need of them (e.g. His grace, wisdom, etc.). Therefore our faith in God is in a constant state of “testing” (for lack of a better term). Failure to live consistently with the promises of God is a sure indication of a lack faith in Him to keep those promises (or a lack of desire for what has been promised, but that is a different topic).
As a closing thought, I think faith also plays into the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom. Many of the promises of God are promises to punish disobedience, so fearing the Lord has at the root of it a faith in God carrying out these threats. The person who fears the Lord already has some faith in Him.
I’m rambling now. This stuff is less than fully baked, so I would appreciate any criticism from the forum.
Consider how faith is used when we talk about faith in things other than God. We talk about having faith in a spouse. This means that we trust them to live up to the vows (promises) they made at the wedding. An unfaithful spouse is one who has broken those promises. I think it is also appropriate to express faith in inanimate objects like a car, a boat, or a bridge. The bridge is an interesting one to think about. I often drive over a bridge that, if it were to fail, would likely kill me should I happen to be on it when it did so, yet I drive over it without any qualms. I would describe my faith in that bridge to be “strong” based on this experience. Several factors have influenced my opinion of this bridge. Its origin (I assume it was designed by a qualified engineer), its history (countless vehicles have crossed it, some much larger than mine), personal testimony of others who have used the bridge, and personal experience with this and other bridges all play into the basis of my faith in this object to do what it “promises” to do (i.e. take me over the river into downtown). I would also say that I both “trust” and “believe in” this bridge to do what it promises to do based on this same experience, which shows how similar these concepts are.
The question now is whether or not this concept of faith is aligned with scriptural faith in God. In my opinion, it is. For example:
Heb 11:11
By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered Him faithful who had made the promise.
Notice Abraham believed God because he considered Him faithful to keep His promise.
Check out 2 Cor 1:18-20.
18 But as God is faithful, our word to you was not Yes and No.
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us-- by me, Silvanus, and Timothy-- was not Yes and No, but in Him was Yes.
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.
(NKJ)
Paul is defending his decision not to visit the Corinthians and is essentially saying, “We are faithful to do what we promise, just like God.” Being faithful means you keep your promises.
Doulos mentioned the time in Num 20 when Moses struck the rock rather than spoke to the rock as he was commanded. I think God reprimanded him for not believing God would make water flow with only words as He promised (“How could he possibly do that? God needed me to strike the rock the last time.”). Moses decided to “help” God make good on His promise to make water flow.
2 Cor 5:5-9
5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7 We live by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
9 So we make it our goal to please Him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
In the context Paul is talking about our being clothed with our heavenly bodies if our earthly bodies are destroyed. We know this will happen because He has given us the Holy Spirit as evidence of this fact. Therefore our actions reflect what we know will come to pass, and this is called living by faith. This is not “blind” faith (faith without basis). In fact, one of the primary purposes of the Bible is to testify to God’s faithfulness to keep his promises. John says in John 20:30-31:
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name.
Similarly, we show that God is faithful to keep His promises about the future through our testimony of what God has done backed up our actions.
The Holy Spirit has a similar role, and this is one area where I think belief in God is different than our belief in e.g. the trustworthiness of a bridge. The nature of belief is similar in both cases, but the evidence is different (one has a spiritual aspect to it, the other does not).
This concept of faith also plays in well with the non-Calvinist view of faith not being a meritorious work or something to brag about. What is the basis for my faith? Is it not the character of the object of that faith? I have faith in my spouse because she has proven to be faithful. It is my natural response to her good character. The same is true for God. I have faith in Him because His character demands it. Going back to my bridge example, some might even describe a refusal to drive over the bridge as being irrational based on the bridge’s track record. Those of us who know the character of God would say the same thing about someone who refuses to have faith in Him.
Notice also how I have used the word faithfulness throughout my discussion? It seems that faithfulness is not the result of faith but rather the cause of faith. In other words I have faith in God because He is faithful. I have trust the bridge because it is trustworthy. My faithfulness to keep my promises would result in people having faith in me. As I said before one of God’s primary purposes for the Bible is to provide a basis for faith by recording God’s faithfulness to keep His promises. It also tells us what His promises are, so we aren’t in the dark about that.
Consider also the link between faith and works in my definition of faith. Some promises require or result in action. The bridge I have described promises to take me over the river into town, so my faith in the bridge is tested when I need to get to or from town. If I trust (have faith in) the bridge, I will use it. If not, I will drive 25 miles out of my way to get to the next bridge that will take me over the river. If I don’t use the bridge (despite my need to do so), I prove that any claimed faith in the bridge is only so much hot air. Faith is not too important where there is no need; e.g. It doesn’t matter if I trust the bridge if I don’t want to cross the river. I may have faith in the bridge, but it isn’t “needed” until I have use of what it promises. The nature of the promises of God, however, is such that the Christian is in a constant state of need of them (e.g. His grace, wisdom, etc.). Therefore our faith in God is in a constant state of “testing” (for lack of a better term). Failure to live consistently with the promises of God is a sure indication of a lack faith in Him to keep those promises (or a lack of desire for what has been promised, but that is a different topic).
As a closing thought, I think faith also plays into the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom. Many of the promises of God are promises to punish disobedience, so fearing the Lord has at the root of it a faith in God carrying out these threats. The person who fears the Lord already has some faith in Him.
I’m rambling now. This stuff is less than fully baked, so I would appreciate any criticism from the forum.
Last edited by _efrain on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
mad - my initials, not my state of mind.
Mad ( hope you really aren't )
Thankyou for these explanations and sharing your heart and knowledge on this. I am struggling personally also with some issues regarding faith and how to "apply" them in some very people sensitive places in my life right now.
Your answers and thoughts backed up with scipture have been healing and insightful to me. whether you consider them "half baked" or not....God Bless Glow
Thankyou for these explanations and sharing your heart and knowledge on this. I am struggling personally also with some issues regarding faith and how to "apply" them in some very people sensitive places in my life right now.
Your answers and thoughts backed up with scipture have been healing and insightful to me. whether you consider them "half baked" or not....God Bless Glow
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
mad,
Thanks for your interesting post.
You said:
Regarding your comments concerning God's faithfulness, it is interesting that pistis is translated that way in Romans 3:3: "Will their unbelief (apisteo) make the faithfulness (pistis) of God without effect?"
Thanks for your interesting post.
You said:
I would say your actions regarding the first bridge have the meaning of unbelief and in regard to the second bridge, the meaning of faith. In neither case would either action have the meaning of works, which I take to mean trust in self. What do you think?Consider also the link between faith and works in my definition of faith. Some promises require or result in action. The bridge I have described promises to take me over the river into town, so my faith in the bridge is tested when I need to get to or from town. If I trust (have faith in) the bridge, I will use it. If not, I will drive 25 miles out of my way to get to the next bridge that will take me over the river.
Regarding your comments concerning God's faithfulness, it is interesting that pistis is translated that way in Romans 3:3: "Will their unbelief (apisteo) make the faithfulness (pistis) of God without effect?"
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Glow,
Sorry for the confusion. I am a slow typist so I have to be economical with my words.
To me trust is inherent in the meaning of faith. Refusal to cross the first bridge had the meaning of unbelief, that is, distrust that the bridge would "do what it said". Likewise, crossing the second bridge had the meaning of belief or trust that the bridge would get you safely across.
Would it make sense to say "works" would represent trying to build and cross the river by your own bridge?
Sorry for the confusion. I am a slow typist so I have to be economical with my words.
To me trust is inherent in the meaning of faith. Refusal to cross the first bridge had the meaning of unbelief, that is, distrust that the bridge would "do what it said". Likewise, crossing the second bridge had the meaning of belief or trust that the bridge would get you safely across.
Would it make sense to say "works" would represent trying to build and cross the river by your own bridge?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer,
I agree with your statements given your stated definition of works, which is a good definition when talking about trying to earn salvation by doing works of the law. What I was actually getting at in the quoted section on faith and works was more along the lines of trying to explain what James meant when he said faith without works/deeds is useless (Jms 2:20) or dead (Jms 2:26). I was trying to illustrate how true faith in something will dictate or drive your behavior in times when a stated promise is relevant (e.g. I need to get over the river, and this bridge promises to do that.). Your behavior will be in line with your faith in times like this. This is also how I reconcile the way scripture seems to indicate that we are saved by faith but judged by our deeds/works (sheep and goats, Rom 2:5-11, etc.). This makes sense if faith in God invariably leads to right actions, and I think this (the ability to rightly) is exactly what He has promised us in Christ. For example, He has promised to deliver us from temptation (1 Cor 10:13, etc.), so those who have faith in God’s promise will look for the way out and be delivered from temptation. He has also promised the Holy Spirit (who enables us to live rightly) to those who ask (Lk 11:13), so those who have faith in God will ask Him for the Holy Spirit. This is what I was trying to illustrate.
Does this help or just muddy the water?
I agree with your statements given your stated definition of works, which is a good definition when talking about trying to earn salvation by doing works of the law. What I was actually getting at in the quoted section on faith and works was more along the lines of trying to explain what James meant when he said faith without works/deeds is useless (Jms 2:20) or dead (Jms 2:26). I was trying to illustrate how true faith in something will dictate or drive your behavior in times when a stated promise is relevant (e.g. I need to get over the river, and this bridge promises to do that.). Your behavior will be in line with your faith in times like this. This is also how I reconcile the way scripture seems to indicate that we are saved by faith but judged by our deeds/works (sheep and goats, Rom 2:5-11, etc.). This makes sense if faith in God invariably leads to right actions, and I think this (the ability to rightly) is exactly what He has promised us in Christ. For example, He has promised to deliver us from temptation (1 Cor 10:13, etc.), so those who have faith in God’s promise will look for the way out and be delivered from temptation. He has also promised the Holy Spirit (who enables us to live rightly) to those who ask (Lk 11:13), so those who have faith in God will ask Him for the Holy Spirit. This is what I was trying to illustrate.
Does this help or just muddy the water?
Last edited by _efrain on Sat May 13, 2006 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
mad - my initials, not my state of mind.
Mad
Well, Muddied waters or not, I think I understand it and agree with the connection. You have a good way of explaining things, at least to me anyways thanks.
Homer, I think my confusion with your statement you were saying was the first bridge was unbelief to you. To me because He DID take the action and crossed the bridge it was faith....Thanks Glow
Well, Muddied waters or not, I think I understand it and agree with the connection. You have a good way of explaining things, at least to me anyways thanks.
Homer, I think my confusion with your statement you were saying was the first bridge was unbelief to you. To me because He DID take the action and crossed the bridge it was faith....Thanks Glow
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Jesusfollower
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- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:11 pm
- Location: NW
It seems to me that the works James is talking about is not works of rituals and ordinances, but rather works of what has been made available to the church, like the Manifestations of the gift of holy spirit, and works of standing fast in the liberty where in Christ has made us free. What about works like taking care of the widows and orphans. It has nothing to do with man made ordinances wherein they want to entangle us in ordinances once again.
Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace
Ephesians 2
8For (U)by grace you have been saved (V)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (W)the gift of God;
9(X)not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace
Ephesians 2
8For (U)by grace you have been saved (V)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (W)the gift of God;
9(X)not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: