"No, I Don't Forgive You"

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Biblegate
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"No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Biblegate » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:30 am

You offended someone. You apologized and asked for forgiveness but were told, "No, I don't forgive you."

Now what? What do you do when someone refuses to forgive you? That's what a caller asked Steve Gregg, host of The Narrow Path radio talk program.

Have you had the same experience?

https://youtu.be/otlmEUnL-uY


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Paidion
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:55 am

One time when I asked someone to forgive me, that person said, "I forgave you a long time ago." Somehow, because of the manner in which the person said it, I felt it to me an insult rather than a mere statement of having forgiven me.

What are your thoughts?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TK
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by TK » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:00 am

Paidion wrote:One time when I asked someone to forgive me, that person said, "I forgave you a long time ago." Somehow, because of the manner in which the person said it, I felt it to me an insult rather than a mere statement of having forgiven me.

What are your thoughts?
This begs the question of whether you can truly forgive someone without the courtesy of letting them know.

I agree that in this context it was a non-charitable thing to say. It conveys an air of superiority.

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Paidion
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Paidion » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:21 pm

TK wrote: This begs the question of whether you can truly forgive someone without the courtesy of letting them know.
Yes, it does lead to that question. However, many people understand "forgiveness" as tantamount to "pardon"—that is, not requiring any restitution on the part of the offender, and also letting go of any ill feelings you might have against the offender. But I think Jesus taught forgiveness as a restoration of relationship with the offender, conditional upon the offender's repentance.

Jesus said:
"Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." (Luke 17:3)

By the way, "begging the question" is an expression used in formal logic to the practice of using the conclusion of a formal argument as one of the premises. In recent times, some people have latched onto the expression and used it in the way in which you have done above. Please understand that in no way am I rebuking you for using it in that way; I just thought you might like to know that grammarians consider it to be an incorrect use of the expression.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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TK
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by TK » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:57 pm

You are correct - I should have said “a question that begs to be asked...”

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Homer
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:47 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
But I think Jesus taught forgiveness as a restoration of relationship with the offender, conditional upon the offender's repentance.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "restoration of relationship"? What if a young lady is dating a young man and on a date he rapes her? Would her forgiveness necessitate that she resume dating the man? Many other examples could be adduced that would call your understanding of forgiveness into question such as the bookkeeper who steals from his employer or the day care employee who molests a child.

Can you cite a scripture for your understanding? I once believed as you do.

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Paidion
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Paidion » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:15 pm

Hi Homer,
Thank you for expressing your thoughts about my position. Please pardon me for delaying my response. I did so for two reasons—I happened to be occupied with many things at the time, and didn't want to give a hurried or perfunctory response, and secondly I was interested in what others might say to this paramount issue.
You wrote:Could you elaborate on what you mean by "restoration of relationship"?
Yes, I mean exactly that! When an offender truly repents (has a change of heart and mind), and the offended person grants true forgiveness (as opposed to mere pardon ie. letting go of his ill feelings toward the offender and not requiring restitution) ,then the relationship between the two individuals becomes as it was prior to the offence. With regard to their restored relationship, it is then just as if the offence had never occurred .
What if a young lady is dating a young man and on a date he rapes her? Would her forgiveness necessitate that she resume dating the man?
It would necessitate that he would have had a true repentance, a change of heart and mind concerning what he had done. The young lady could grant true forgiveness if she recognized the sincerity of his repentance. This could well result in the resumption of dating. I don't say that it necessitates that aspect of their former relationship because there may be other factors involved in her choice not to do so. But those other factors would not include a concern that he might rape her again. For if she thought that, then she did not truly forgive him.
Many other examples could be adduced that would call your understanding of forgiveness into question such as the bookkeeper who steals from his employer...
Again, if the bookkeeper truly repented and his employer recognized this as a real change of heart and mind, and granted true forgiveness, then he would trust that employer as he trusted him previously. As far as their restored relationship was concerned, it would be just as if he had never stolen.
...or the day care employee who molests a child.
Once again, if the employee TRULY repented and the parent of the child recognized this as genuine repentance (a change of heart and mind) and truly forgave him, he would then trust that employee not to repeat his crime, and would be willing to permit his child to be again under his care. If the parent couldn't trust him, then he didn't believe in the employee's declaration of repentance and didn't truly forgive him.
Can you cite a scripture for your understanding?
Consider that forgiveness of people, including God's forgiveness, seem to be conditional upon repentance:

Lu 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Lu 17:4 “And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”
Ac 8:22 “Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Ac 26:18 ‘to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’



In the case of the child molester, the parent might think, "Yes, I forgive him, but I'm not going to let him near my child again!" What if God "forgave" you with such a condition? What if He said, "Yes, I forgive you, but don't bother praying to Me. I won't listen to your prayer, and I certainly won't answer it!" Would you be satisfied with that kind of "forgiveness"?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:18 pm

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not seeing in any of the scriptures cited where it is stated or implied that forgiveness entails a restoration of relationship. Perhaps you can enlighten me, as I am interested.

It seems to me any analogy regarding God's forgiveness and that between us and our neighbor fails because only God knows whether the person has truly repented. This uncertainty, I think, would allow us to justifiably withhold, as appropriate, certain privileges from the other person while treating them in a loving way. And this withholding of privilege could be the most loving thing to do. The person who embezzled from his employer, if placed back in his previous position, would be placed back in a position of temptation where he has a proven weakness.

I might add that long ago I wrote a letter to some quarreling relatives (four siblings) where I took the exact position you hold.

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TK
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by TK » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:34 am

I don’t know Paidion- your position seems to take things a tad far.

Forgiveness in my mind seems to entail letting go of bitterness and anger towards a person. It does not require trusting that person 100%.

Your position might be applied when only you are affected but when you are responsible for others, like children, there is a duty to protect. A child abuser may say he’s sorry but he is not sin free and cannot be trusted to be around children again, at least not MY grandchildren. Clearly I am not to hold anger in my heart if I have forgiven, but not trusting does not mean I am angry or bitter. As Gomer Pyle said, “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

I think you are defining forgiveness to include full restoration of trust and I am not sure that is a biblical requirement.

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Paidion
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Re: "No, I Don't Forgive You"

Post by Paidion » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:53 am

Hi Homer, you wrote:The person who embezzled from his employer, if placed back in his previous position, would be placed back in a position of temptation where he has a proven weakness.
If the person would still be tempted, this is a clear indication that he has not had a change of heart and mind. He might have been sorry when he was caught, and some people call that "repentance" but he would not have repented as indicated by the Biblical word "μετανοια." "μετα" means "change" and "νοια" refers to the mind. Thus "μετανοια" means "change of mind." If the man had truly changed his mind about stealing, then he wouldn't be tempted when placed in the same position. If the employer is unable to trust him, then he did not truly forgive him.
Hi TK, you wrote:Forgiveness in my mind seems to entail letting go of bitterness and anger towards a person. It does not require trusting that person 100%.
That is a very common concept of "forgiveness." I use the word "pardon" for that. Pardon may also not require the person the person to make restitution. I also acknowledge that the Greek word for "forgiveness" may refer either to true forgiveness involving restoration of relationship, as well as to simple pardon that may not. And of course, merely letting go of bitterness and anger and not requiring restitution, does not necessitate ever trusting the person again.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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