What is happened to Israel is happening now to all the west:

[steve]

As I said, even those who believe that the return to the land in the present time is a fulfillment of prophecy would be at a loss to find, among any such alleged prophecies, any endorsement of injustice, theft, murder, etc.

[Paidion]

As I said, even those who believe that the return to the land in the present time is a fulfillment of prophecy would be at a loss to find, among any such alleged prophecies, any endorsement of injustice, theft, murder, etc.

So, your position seems to be that God would not endorse "injustice, theft, murder, etc." at the present time as a means of today's Jews reclaiming the promised land. But in the initial takeover of the land, He was okay with complete destruction of the people of seven nations, instructing the Israelites to show them no mercy.

When the LORD your God brings you into the land that you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations more numerous and mightier than yourselves, and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them, then you must devote them to complete destruction. You shall make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them. (Deuteronomy 7:1,2 ESV)

[steve]

In Joshua's day, the Canaanites were ripe for judgment, and Israel was God's instrument. This cannot be said to be the case with the Palestinians—a significant percentage of whom are Christians. There is no prophet like Moses today receiving wartime instructions for Israel.

I know you do not believe that any of the judgment acts of God in the Bible are genuinely from God, so there is no need to keep up this dialogue. If we both believed the Bible's claims about such things, we might have a fruitful discussion. As it is, we will be talking past each other.

[Paidion]

I know you do not believe that any of the judgment acts of God in the Bible are genuinely from God, so there is no need to keep up this dialogue. If we both believed the Bible's claims about such things, we might have a fruitful discussion. As it is, we will be talking past each other.

All right. Consider the dialogue closed. But I will say in closing that it's not a matter of believing "the Bible's claims." Rather it's a matter of choosing between Moses' description of God's character and commands, and that of His only-begotten Son, who divested Himself of His divine attributes and became a man, retaining only His identity as the Son of God. You seem to think that Moses' description of God and His acts, and that of Jesus are consistent, but an unbiased reader never having been exposed to either, would be unlikely to come to that conclusion. You have said that I believe God is "one-dimensional" (because of my belief that God is LOVE). Love is not one of a number of characteristics of God; rather it is His essence. I suppose I could say that you believe in a "bi-polar" God—that He is not only a God of love, but also a God of hate and vengeance and penalty. However, I am courteous enough not to do that.

Once again, Jesus described the Father as one who is kind to evil and ungrateful people, and whose kindness is meant to lead people to repentance. Moses stated that Yahweh, rather than being kind to evil people, ordered their elimination. The way to solve the evil in people is to slay them—much the same attitude as that of ISIS today, or of even some so-called Christians who would be willing to kill evil people if they could get away with it. As you know, during the middle ages, Martin Luther and Zwingli, had Anabaptists slain (even though in the beginning, Luther merely stated that Anabaptists were to be pitied). Then there were the Crusades. Such acts are justified because they are supposedly eliminating evil people and as a consequence, eliminating evil itself, while remaining blind to the fact that their acts of killing are themselves evil, and that rather than eliminating evil, the commission of evil acts begets more evil. Jesus instructed His disciples not to resist evil, but to do good to evil people, "go the second mile", and to pray for them.

I know you can offer passages from the Psalms and prophets that depict the love, kindness, and patience of Yahweh. However, it seems always to have been directed toward the Israelites, and seldom, if ever, toward anyone else.

[steve]

Rather it's a matter of choosing between Moses' description of God's character and commands, and that of His only-begotten Son

Fortunately, we are left with no such dichotomy. Or at least Jesus was not aware of any such. Nor were Christians (other than the Marcionites) for the past 2,000 years. Nor have I, or any Bible students or scholars with whom I have associated, or whom I have read, ever been driven to such a radical extremity. The scriptures have always presented themselves as internally harmonious to those who approach them agenda-free. Though you may not be the only person holding your views, you are the first I ever encountered, and your arguments (thankfully) are so easy to refute as to render your position no effective challenge to orthodox Christian exegesis.

But I will say in closing that it's not a matter of believing "the Bible's claims."

Actually, it is. You not only deny judgment acts of God when recorded by Moses, but also when they are mentioned in the Psalms, the Prophets, the Gospels, the Acts, Peter and Paul's Epistles, and the Book of Revelation—and even when they are affirmed by Jesus Himself. I have pointed these out to you numerous times before. This pretty much amounts to denying "the Bible's claims." What segment or writer of the Bible have you failed to contradict in this matter? Can you name one?

You alone—above the prophets and the apostles—have discerned this inconsistency between the character of Christ and that of the God who judges the wicked. You may not be entirely alone (since I don't know who else stands with you in this), but the company that stands against you is impressive—Jesus among them.

[Paidion]

For those who are struggling with the same inconsistencies between Moses' depiction of God and God's commands, and Jesus' depiction of God and Jesus' teachings (as I have struggled for many years before arriving at my present understanding), I offer a couple of quotes and an essay that may help you in your search as they have helped me:

To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God.”
― George MacDonald, Unspoken Sermons - Series I, II, and III

"To say that God's goodness may be different in kind from man's goodness, what is it but saying, with a slight change of phraseology, that God may possibly not be good?" ~John Stuart Mill

John Stuart Mill was a philosopher, and possibly not a Christian—but non-Christians can reason, too.

You may wish to go to this site, and download a short essay by Dr. Bob Wilson entitled "Reading the Bible Like Jesus Did":
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/ ... =58&t=6424

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

You seem to think that Moses' description of God and His acts, and that of Jesus are consistent, but an unbiased reader never having been exposed to either, would be unlikely to come to that conclusion.

I would think Jesus' threats and warnings on what will happen to the wicked at the last judgement will be at least equivalent to God's judgement of the Canaanites. Perhaps more so given that death ended the suffering of many of those conquered by Joshua.

You have said that I believe God is "one-dimensional" (because of my belief that God is LOVE). Love is not one of a number of characteristics of God; rather it is His essence. I suppose I could say that you believe in a "bi-polar" God—that He is not only a God of love, but also a God of hate and vengeance and penalty. However, I am courteous enough not to do that.

Good to not say it but you seem to imply it of Steve and almost all Christians.

Once again, Jesus described the Father as one who is kind to evil and ungrateful people, and whose kindness is meant to lead people to repentance. Moses stated that Yahweh, rather than being kind to evil people, ordered their elimination.

You seem to fail to discern any distinction between God's general benevolence to all mankind and His judgements on the sins of particular persons.

[steve7150]

A. Myths and misunderstandings
The following six myths are widely held and repeated by pro-Zionists (including Christians). After each myth, I have provided quotations refuting the myth.




Some of your sources are Palestinians and unlike Israelis they speak in one accord, all exactly the same. Israel is evil and Palestinians are innocent victims. The NY Times is a left wing rag and has never had a nice thing to say about Israel. Lastly some Israelis have spoken from their prospective
which is true, but it s/b noted that they can speak freely in Israeli society and not be killed for it.
I'm sure some of what you quoted was true and some of what i had referenced was true. Probably there were orange groves and probably large areas of desolation. As far as Israelis legally purchasing the land, the man you referenced was not there so he relied on his sources and i have read very different accounts. No doubt some Israelis committed atrocities and no doubt some Arabs did too.
There are plenty of sources that believe right now that Palestinians,Arabs and many other muslims simply want to annihilate Israel and Jews in general today. A couple are ex Palestinian terrorists like "Son of Hamas" Moab Yousef who has a blog which you may want to read and Walid Shoebat who has a website.
Not all bible believers who see Israel as an endtime fulfillment are Dispensationalist , i have heard David Stein several times on ChristianQuestions.net as a guest and they are Historicists. Stein has addressed how in his opinion the Jews would return in unbelief to "the land" and later be converted based on scripture. I'll try and find it in the archives of the show.

[steve]

I don't need to hear the interview. Just send the scriptures he uses (as if it is not obvious which ones he will use).

My sources, as you saw, are varied. Some come from Palestinians, some from Israelis, and some from secular, scholarly books. They all say the same thing. Brother Andrew (God's Smuggler) has written about the Palestinian/ Israeli crisis and confirms these other sources. So did Elisabeth Elliott, in her book "Furnace of the Lord." She went to Israel in 1967, and stayed several months, interviewing Israelis and Arabs. She saw with her own eyes how the Palestinians were treated. She went to Israel slightly disposed toward dispensationalism, but came home and wrote her book so favorably toward the Palestinians that she could not find a an American Christian publisher to publish it. A British publisher finally did so. The book is now out of print, though I have a copy.

Brother Andrew wrote:
“[After the slaughter at Deir Yassin] A few men were left alive and driven around to other villages to tell the story; then those men were killed too. The result was a panic. That’s why so many Palestinians fled. Entire villages were emptied, which is exactly what the Israelis wanted. They just took over those people’s homes.” —Brother Andrew and Al Janssen, "Light Force: A Stirring Account of the Church Caught in the Middle East Crossfire" (Grand Rapids: Revell, 2004), 110.

Elisabeth Elliott wrote:
"I saw things which the Ministry of Tourism would just as soon I hadn’t seen: hillsides which for centuries had been cultivated and terraced by Arabs, turned into desert since 1948. The Israelis had neither knowledge nor inclination to preserve the olive trees and I saw hundreds of acres of crumbling terraces, dried vines, dying trees. It would be impossible to cultivate these terraces by machine, and in modern Israel economically unsound to cultivate them in the ancient way."

There are few evangelicals whom I trust more than Brother Andrew and Elisabeth Elliott. They confirm what all the other sources say. What sources have you for denying these historical accounts?

No one can justify the Arab's desire to exterminate the Jews—though this is not the universal attitude of the persecuted Palestinians—many of whom are Christians, and tell Christian interviewers that they can't understand why their American Christian brethren support those who are oppressing them (good question!). The desire to exterminate the Jews, while inexcusable, is not hard to understand. The Polish Jews in the Warsaw Ghettos, under the Nazis, ran nighttime guerrilla raids (terrorist attacks) against Nazi soldiers. We would call these Jews "freedom fighters." The Palestinians, who have been driven from their homes, had their families shot and their women raped before their eyes, and been relocated to refugee camps are in a situation not dissimilar to the Jews in the Nazi-enforce ghettos. No doubt they regard their terrorist actions as "freedom fighting." While we cannot justify killing innocent people, I find it interesting that we can regard Jews killing Nazis as "freedom fighters," but cannot appreciate the same motivations in Palestinians. True, the latter are Muslims (as if that should have anything to do with it), but the Jews are Jewish. Both belong to anti-Christian religions. Why favor the one and not the other?

In recent years, the Palestinians have resorted to more and more cruel and desperate measures, making them definitely appear to be the real bad guys—and many of them (not all Palestinians, by any means) are really wicked people!

So are many of the Jews. Menachem Begin (one-time Prime Minister of Israel), was previously the the leader of the Irgun, a terrorist organization, that bombed the King David Hotel, killing 90 people of several nationalities, including British soldiers quartered there (the British were not at war with the Jews—they were the UN-appointed keepers of the peace). Irgun also was the group that conducted the slaughter of innocent villagers at Deir Yassun. Both events occurred prior to the statehood of Israel, and prior to the Israel/Palestinian war of 1948.

Richard Crossman, a British Labour Party MP, sympathetic to Zionism, visited Chaim Weizmann (later the first president of Israel) shortly after the King David Hotel bombing. Weizmann's ambivalence towards Zionist violence was apparent in the conversation. While condemning it, he also stated that he sympathised with its causes. When the King David Hotel bombing was mentioned, Weizmann started crying heavily. He said, "I can't help feeling proud of our boys. If only it had been a German headquarters, they would have gotten the Victoria Cross." ( Clarke, Thurston. By Blood and Fire, G. P. Puttnam's Sons, New York, 1981)

Alison Weir, a journalist specializing in the Israel/Palestinian conflict, wrote: "[Menachem] Begin…proudly admitted his terrorism in an interview for American television. When the interviewer asked him, 'How does it feel, in the light of all that’s going on, to be the father of terrorism in the Middle East?’ Begin proclaimed, 'In the Middle East? In all the world!'
—in "Against Our Better Judgment," 61

[Candlepower]

John Stuart Mill was a philosopher, and possibly not a Christian—but non-Christians can reason, too.

Possibly not a Christian? It sounds like you're saying there's a good chance Mill was a Christian, but just possibly not. I have found no evidence indicating Mill ever was possibly a Christian at all. In fact, all the evidence clearly testifies he was not. Certainly Mill made no confession of faith in Christ, and never defined himself as a disciple of Jesus. Do you have testimony from him to the contrary? Typically he is classified as an atheist, and I agree. Obviously, it's impossible for an atheist to be a Christian.

In another thread you generously referred to Karl Marx as simply a philosopher, as you did Mill.

I find it disconcerting when a Christian leans on an atheist to support his theological theory, and leans on a Marxist to support his economic theory.