The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ

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_Christopher
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Post by _Christopher » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:19 pm

Hi Paidion,

What I did state was that the purpose of Jesus’ death was not to forgive us our sin, but so that we could, by His grace, overcome sin in our lives.

I guess what I don't understand is why you think these two things are mutually exclusive. I agree with your assertion that because of Christ's death, we are enabled to overcome sin through the power of the Holy Spirit. But I don't see why it must be one or the other. Could not God have a whole myriad of purposes accomplished at the cross? I would say that one of them certainly (and I believe is) the forgiveness of our sins.

I certainly would not espouse unconditional blank check forgiveness for those who don't abide in Christ. But I would say that all our sins are covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ IF we remain in Him, confess our sins, and He remains LORD of our lives.
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"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
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_Roger
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Post by _Roger » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:46 pm

Good points Christopher.
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:16 pm

I certainly would not espouse unconditional blank check forgiveness for those who don't abide in Christ. But I would say that all our sins are covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ IF we remain in Him, confess our sins, and He remains LORD of our lives.
How do you understand "are covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ"?
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Post by _Homer » Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:26 pm

Paidion,

I believe the issue is being confused. Jesus died for all the sins that have been or will be commited by all mankind. But when is that sacrifice efficacious? Not to those in unbelief. Not to the unrepentent.

I believe you make a mistake when you take subjective statements and use them to support a certain position in spite of contrary facts. You insist that statements by David indicate God had no desire for sacrifices, in an absolute sense, when they can be taken in a relative sense, i.e. God desired them but would rather have obedience to His commands instead. (See also 1 Samuel 15:22-23)

Also the possibility must be considered that the sacrifices were efficacious for less serious or ritual infractions (for example, sins of ignorance, Numbers 15:22-29) whereas the penalty for defiant sin was death with no offering acceptable. It may be that David's sin was as regarded so horrible that only "a broken and contrite heart" could restore him.

Facts are stubborns things. They are always true. It can easily be shown that God commanded atoning sacrifices, even the very details regarding how they were accomplished, and did not take neglect of these positive commands lightly. I fail to see how you can believe He did not want them in any case.
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Post by _Christopher » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:24 pm

Hi Paidion,
How do you understand "are covered by the atoning sacrifice of Christ"?
Well, hopefully the same way the apostles understood it. :)

I understand sacrifice of Christ to be the anti-type of the OT sacrifices which were "types and shadows" (Heb 8:5, 10:1)


One of the words used in the OT for "atonement" is:

OT:3722
kaphar (kaw-far'); a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:

KJV - appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).




Another is:

OT:3725
kippur (kip-poor'); from OT:3722; expiation (only in plural): -atonement.



In my mind, there's no other way to see it than being an appeasement of a debt. I don't understand why God made it so, but it's His universe and He gets to make the rules. I, as His subject, can only yield to them. If He loved me so much that He Himself voluntarily makes the sacrifice for me, that is also His perogative, and my benefit.

Lord bless.
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:43 pm

Recently, I have been looking at a book which I purchased:

Offerings, Sacrifices and Worship in the Old Testament by J.H. Kurtz.

Much of the book gives detailed descriptions of the sacrifices. But in Book 2 THE BLEEDING SACRIFICE, chapter 1 "The Notion of Expiation", the author gives an alternative explanation of "covering" which I found fascinating. The author shows hiding from view is not the only purpose of a covering. A covering may also be protective, a means of shielding one from danger, a means to render something harmless and powerless. For example, a vicious animal might be covered with a cage to prevent it from harming other animals.

The Hebrew word for "cover" is "kaphar" (Strongs 03722), and first occurs
in Genesis 6:14

Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch.

Later the word began to be used figuratively. The author (p. 69) refers to the words of Jacob concerning Esau, "I will cover his face with a present".
Did Jacob want to hide Esau's face? Was his intention to thrust the present in Esau's face, thus preventing him from looking any longer at the wrong that had been done him? (Hofmann's, Schriftbeweis 11, 1, p.233) Kurtz says that we cannot interpret the passage this way, "for in that case he would have followed the analogy of Gen. xx.16, and said, "I will cover his eyes". Then Kutz adds "to say nothing of the fact that the meaning thus obtained could not possibly be applied to the sacrificial. Jacob determines to cover Esau's face, not that he may no longer see the wrong that Jacob has done, but that the anger in Esau's face may be broken, that is to say, rendered althogether powerless."

Kurtz also deals with the passage in Isaiah 28:18,19
Your covenant with death will be covered, And your pact with Sheol will not stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place. As often as it passes through, it will seize you; For morning after morning it will pass through, anytime during the day or night, And it will be sheer terror to understand what it means.

Kurtz comments: "... the meaning is not that the covenant with death shall be rendered invisible, for even as an invisible (secret) covenant might answer its purpose quite as well;.... on the contrary, it is to be rendered powerless and nugatory." The context reveals that Kurtz is right. If you become the "trampling place" for the "overwhelming scourge" then your covenant with death, your protection from death is rendered powerless, and you shall die after all.

Kurtz comments further, p. 70, "And understood in this sense, the sacrificial covering was not merely an apparent, conventional, expiation of sin (which would have been the case if it had been merely removed from the sight of Jehovah), but a process by which it [sin] was actually rendered harmless, which is equivalent to cancelling and utterly annihilating."

Another passage which confirms Kurtz understanding:

Proverbs 16:6 In mercy and truth, is covering for iniquity; And by the fear of Yahweh one departs from evil.

Again, the idea is that if one's iniquity is covered, it is rendered inoperative. And this happens when "one departs from evil."

I am reminded also of the words from Hebrews 9:26

...but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Paul quoted a Psalm of David, making reference to covering for sin. I wondered how to reconcile this concept with Paul's teaching concerning the death of Christ as a means to overcome sin. Now I see that there is no inconsistency when one properly understands "covering".

Paul, quoting Psalm 32: 1, 2

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been sent away and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Romans 4:7

Blessed is he whose transgression is taken away, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom Yahweh does not count iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit. Psalm 32: 1,2


My understanding of the passages is that when actual sin is removed, it is rendered harmless, and therefore, God will no longer hold it against the transgressor.

So, as I see it, the bottom line is that our sins are indeed covered by the blood of Christ. But they are not covered in the sense that they are made invisible to God so that He no longer sees our sin but Christ's righteousness. (That was my understanding of the covering from fundamentalist teachers).

Rather, when we co-operate with the enabling grace of God made available throught the death of Christ, our sins are covered in the sense that they are rendered powerless. For we, by the grace of God, have forsaken them, and so they are removed. So God will no longer hold us accountable for past sins, but only for our present live sins (unless we forsake them also).
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:30 pm

So, as I see it, the bottom line is that our sins are indeed covered by the blood of Christ. But they are not covered in the sense that they are made invisible to God so that He no longer sees our sin but Christ's righteousness. (That was my understanding of the covering from fundamentalist teachers).

Rather, when we co-operate with the enabling grace of God made available throught the death of Christ, our sins are covered in the sense that they are rendered powerless. For we, by the grace of God, have forsaken them, and so they are removed. So God will no longer hold us accountable for past sins, but only for our present live sins (unless we forsake them also).

Thank you for the explanation and the interesting way of explaining that our sins are made powerless or neutralized in effect. Interesting because that would imply that our sins have some type of power perhaps to activate evil in the universe or just in our lives. It seems that forgiveness is still part of the equation although maybe there is something even beyond that to make sin powerless.
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Post by _Homer » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:31 am

Paidion,

You are puzzled over the statement of God that David "was a man after God's heart". IMHO it is rather simple. Although David failed miserably in the area of moral law, he faithfully carried out God's positve commands involving His obligations as the King of Israel. Up to the point where Saul was told by the prophet he would be replaced as King we find no record of moral failure but an obvious failure regarding positive commands. Positive commands test faith in a way moral law never can.
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:49 am

It seems that forgiveness is still part of the equation
This is an interesting way to put it, Steve 7150.
It may surprise some, that I actually agree with it.
When one has repented, been baptized, and has submitted his life to Jesus, then the power to overcome sin becomes available to him, and indeed, if he is truly regenerated, his life is a life of righteousness and overcoming, even though he may stumble once in a while.

When he begins this life of discipleship, then, of course God will not hold his past sins against him. If it is understood that all of God's punishments and judgments are remedial, then there is no need to punish the disciple for past sins, since he is already on the road to Christ-likeness and perfection. God's correction is necessary only for those who go their own way, ignoring God.

However, if we need correction, we should welcome it. We should not desire forgiveness, for that would result in our continuing in our ways of unrighteousness.
Positive commands test faith in a way moral law never can.
It seems, Homer, that you may comprehend something that I do not yet understand. Please explain further why God's positive commands test faith in a way that His negative commands do not... and why carrying out His positive commands makes a person "a man after God's own heart" while carrying out His negative commands would be insufficient make one "a man after God's heart."

Logically, it seems to be that every positive command is also a negative command and vice versa.

For example, God's positive command to Saul which he disobeyed:

"Kill all" could also have been expressed as "Do not leave anything alive."

Likewise God's negative commands "Do not commmit adultery" and "Do not murder" which David disobeyed, could also have been verbalized positively, "Respect the exclusive rights of other men with their wives" and "Allow people to live".
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Post by _loaves » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:58 pm

Paidion wrote:When one has repented, been baptized, and has submitted his life to Jesus, then the power to overcome sin becomes available to him, and indeed, if he is truly regenerated, his life is a life of righteousness and overcoming, even though he may stumble once in a while.
Paidion, could you clarify what you meant by "power." I'm sure you just meant the Holy Spirit or something of that nature. I just thought some of our readers might need some clarity, that's all.

loaves
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