Hell and the Lake of Fire

[Guest]

This post is mainly for Moe, but I want to do a study of "Hell" and how the understanding of it evolved over time while I'm at it.

Before I say anything, however, I need to lay some important groundwork regarding biblical symbolism. See, the idea of some sort of an afterlife occurs symbolically in the bible long before it's explicitly mentioned.

In Genesis 1, we have the earth rising out of the waters of Creation. This is symbolic of the "birth" of the world, just as a baby is born out of the watery amniotic fluid which surrounds the fetus in the womb. This is no chance parallel, either, and this is not just me reading things into things. God designed this parallel. That is, coming out of water represents a birth - or later on in the bible, a death and rebirth. (That's where the symbolic meaning of baptism comes from!)

In the beginning, the world was "without form and void" - that is, there was no life. At the end of the Creation narrative spanning Genesis 1-3, Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden. Symbolically speaking, it was as if they were dead. In order for them to be "born again," they would have to symbolically re-enter and emerge from the waters of Creation.

Furthermore, since Adam and Eve could not re-enter the Garden of Eden and the presence of God until the debt of their sin had been paid - and the wages of sin is death - then technically, they could enter into the Garden of Eden in heaven - the original Garden, of which the Garden on earth was but a copy - after they died!

This understanding of being able to enter into "paradise" after death was understood from practically the very beginning of human history, and it was preserved in corrupted form amidst the early civilizations of the world - such as those of ancient Sumer and Egypt. A lot of non-Christian scholars claim that the Hebrews simply copied this idea from their more ancient neighbors, but they fail to realize that this concept goes all the way back to Eden itself. The Hebrews therefore didn't need to copy it. They already had it.

The concept of what the afterlife was all about slowly developed during the course of history up until the coming of Jesus. According to the book of Job, it was understood that the dead, both wicked and righteous alike, existed in a state of "rest" from their works (Job 3:11-19). Later Jewish speculation (of which the Lazarus parable in Luke 16 is representative) claimed that the righteous and the wicked dwell in separate areas of sheol - so that the wicked could not afflict the righteous any more.

The parable in Luke 16 added a new dimension to the understanding of the afterlife: a burning fire that would torment the wicked. The book of Malachi mentioned the wicked as being "burned up" but that wasn't quite the same thing.

However, the key to understanding this rests in comparing Numbers 14:21 with Exodus 24:17:

Numbers 14:21: "But as truly as I [the Lord] live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

Exodus 24:17: "And the glory of the LORD appeared like devouring fire on the top of the mountain to the children of Israel."

If the glory of the Lord is like devouring fire and all the earth will eventually be filled with the glory of the Lord, then that's what the lake of fire is!

But more than that, the glory of the Lord is the Holy Spirit. It's the fire that didn't consume the bush, who also spoke with Moses. It's the Spirit of Love (2 Tim. 1:7)!

Therefore, the wicked, when they are immersed in this lake of fire, have their bodies burned up a-la Malachi, but their spirits endure torment because they become supernaturally sensitive to the pain that they have caused others.

Make sense?

Damon

[Guest]

Thank you for your comments and the time it took to write.
I know the 7th day adventists dont believe in a literal hell that burns forever and ever as most protestants do.... Me, I hope the adventists are accurate, otherwise the wicked would have eternal life ...........

[Guest]

Well, think of it this way. What would be the point of simply putting the wicked out of our misery? Many of them would then never have the opportunity to know what kind of suffering they caused others. They'd just die. Even if they're burned up in the lake of fire at the second death, where's the compensation to those who suffered?

I actually think it's more just for the wicked to experience the kind of pain they've caused others.

Damon

[Guest]

I don't believe God would tell us to love our enemies yet torment people eternally. It just does'nt make sense and there is no rationalization to explain it. The word translated as eternal is "aion" which means age not eternal yet everyone seems to unquestionably assume it means eternal. It's a time to be determined by God. Luke 16 IMHO is not about hell but is about the jewish nation rejection of Jesus and the torment it would cause them. Father Abraham only is meaningful to them and this parable was the 5th after Jesus had just relayed 4 in a row to the Pharisees.

[Guest]

steve 7150,

Good thoughts!

are you an adventist?

[Guest]

The view of eternal punishment and the view of annihilation of the wicked are not the only possibilities.

The reconciliation of all people to God is what I see in the Scriptures.
It doesn't happen automatically, but when "every knee shall bow" it will become a reality. Some say that every knee shall bow when they are hit behind the knee with a 2 by 4. But God has never forced submission at any time. He does not do so now. And He won't do so in the future.

Here is what Paul taught:

Colossians 1:19,20
For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

God will not automatically take everyone to heaven. Every individual must submit to the authority of Christ, and will do so, even if it takes ages and ages. These rebels CANNOT hold out forever! They have to repent and submit to Jesus, just as you and I did. God's love is boundless, and it's "tough love". He will do His best for every individual. He'll do whatever it takes to bring that one to Himself!

Here are some other reconciliation Scriptures:

Ephesians 1:9,10
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Romans 5:18
Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for all people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for all people.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Revelation 5:12-13
And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Philippians 3:20,21
But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

[Guest]

Hi Paidion.

Before I get started, I'd like to say that I admire your enthusiasm. You've probably posted to about twenty or thirty threads since you've joined just a short while ago - - and I enjoy reading your upbeat posts.

From what you wrote above, I can understand why universal salvation makes perfect sense to you. However, if you'll bear with me for a bit, I'd like to explain why it doesn't make sense to me personally.

First of all, I've made extensive study of the cultural context of the bible, which has led me into all manner of changes in my beliefs, as well as new understanding of things I'd never known before. For instance, I used to believe that when a person dies, they are unconscious and "sleep" until they're resurrected. I no longer believe this based on what I've studied.

Secondly, for quite a long while, I've been studying the how's and why's of God's plan of reconciliation (and restoration). My number one conclusion has been that God primarily - and ultimately - operates by motivating people through the Spirit of Love. (Zech. 4:6 cf. 2 Tim. 1:7; Jer. 31:1-11 is also a good demonstration of God preserving a remnant of Israel out of love rather than destroying them all because of their wickedness.) But in order for God to motivate people through love, they have to be able to respond to love.

The whole concept of "quenching the Spirit" (1 Thess. 5:19) simply means denying love! And if a person refuses to be motivated by the Spirit of Love, no matter how much they might understand about how they make the ones they sin against feel (like I talked about in the post earlier in this thread), then what else can be done with them?

IMHO, I honestly don't see some people truly repenting from the heart. They've quenched their love and it cannot be restored no way, no how. But I also believe that a lot more people are reachable through love than aren't.

As far as the passages you've cited go, I've read them myself many times. My own personal conclusion is that when God says that "all will be made alive," that's true. All will. But not all will stay that way. Those who are incorrigibly wicked will suffer the second death, which is why it's called just that. Also, when God says that "all will worship Him," that's true. But that only includes those who are alive and have been resurrected at that time, not those whose spirits are bound in the lake of fire. And this only applies after "all enemies have been destroyed - including death." In other words, God's enemies aren't all redeemed. They're destroyed.

I struggled a long time to understand how to reconcile passages like Malachi 4:1 and 3 which claim destruction to be the fate of the wicked, with passages like Revelation 14:8-11 which claim eternal torment as their fate. I finally realized that both can be true - if we consider "destruction" to mean the destruction of the body but not the spirit. It would be the spirit which would suffer torment, not the person in their body.

Anyway...I hope that makes sense to you. And keep at it, because I think your posts are very good. ^_^

Damon

[Guest]

Thank you for your kind words, Damon.

I'd like to comment a bit on the word "destruction". Today, the word "destroy" may be considered to be synonymous to "annihilation".
Or if something is destroyed, but not annihilated, it is at least ripped apart to the extent that it is no longer of any use. But often, in the Bible, the original form of the person or object is destoyed, and the new and improved form comes forth. Here is one example:

I Peter 1:3-7
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been regenerated to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,
who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

In Greek, the word "apollumi" is translated "destroy" in the active sense and "perish" in the passive sense. As a completed passive action, it is translated as "lost".

Fire does not destroy gold in the modern sense of "destroy". Gold doesn't "perish" in a fire. But the original form of the gold perishes, that is, the crude ore that is mined from the earth. After that refining, the pure, genuine gold comes forth, unaffected by the fire. Peter says that it is similar with our faith. The genuineness of our faith will come forth, when Jesus comes, purified by the trials of persecution, which will burn away all the dross. It is the dross, self-serving attitudes that keeps us from being the beautiful people of God that we were meant to be.

Likewise, when the resurrection of the unrighteous takes place, they will be cast into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and the dross will be burned away. Eventually, they will submit to the authority of Christ, and come forth as gold.

The lost can be found. Those who have perished can regain life.

Remember when the loving father regained his prodigal son?

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead , and is alive; he was lost, and is found."

[Guest]

Hi Paidion.

I understand your logic, but to me, that which doesn't perish when the "dross is burned away" is ultimately a person's resurrected body which is made of spirit, and which doesn't die or "perish." This is equivalent to the concept of God "shaking" the heavens and the earth. Whatever isn't "shaken" - that is, whatever doesn't perish eternally - will "remain" in an eternal state. (Heb. 12:26-28; cf. Rom. 8:19-23 and 2 Pet. 3:10-13) Only those who are "founded upon a rock" (Mat. 7:24-25) - meaning that they act in love and are able to trust God to take care of their needs, no matter how much they're tested by circumstances - will survive this "shaking" process.

Basically, the bible uses the same symbolism for the process of a person's growth and testing in Christ - calling these tests "fiery trials" - so that they may rise from the dead as new creations as it does for the perishing of the whole world in fire so that the new (actually renewed) heavens and earth might be born. It's the concept of being "baptized" by water or by fire, symbolizing a new "birth".

Damon

[Guest]

dear friends,

IF the Lord wants us to do such things as turn the other cheek,
give more to those that ask, love our enemies and do good
to those who despitefully use us etc, would God have the unsaved
spend eternity in "hell"that burns forever? Wouldn't hell be the separation
from an all loving GOD? Otherwise the lost would have eternal life
even if spent in misery, is there really a literal hell?
thank you!