a debate

Post by **_gracemonger** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:29 pm

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." Titus 3:9

I was asked once if our church would like to host a debate, which would basically juxtapose Calvinism and Arminianism. It would involve two candidates, considered worthy to represent the two positions. One being that God saves sinners freely, having elected a particular people in eternity based solely on his own will without regard to any quality or action on the sinners part, and effectually redeems those sinners, and only them by the blood of his Son. The other would be that Gods election was based upon the decision of man which he foresaw and reacted to their faith by rewarding it with salvation, Christ having died attempting to save all men, but depending upon the sinner to make his blood effectual by distinguishing himself from other sinners by inherent faith independently exercised. Such debates have been held commonly throughout the ages.

I want you to think about what that man asked me in essence. What he was saying was, we have found someone who hates the sovereign, free grace of God and the God who bestows it in Christ, as he is revealed in His Word. He not only hates God, but he is good at expressing his hatred for God and at perverting His Gospel. He is a qualified blasphemer of God, and that is why he is being considered. We know before he comes that he will blaspheme our Saviour, and that is why we would ask him to come. Wouldnt you like to have him come to your place of worship and blaspheme? Would you provide him a microphone and an audience so he can lie about your God? Hmmm, let me think about thatno. Thatno is not a misspell, it is exactly how I would end my answer to such a preposterous proposal.

God has plainly revealed himself and how he saves sinners, and imagine a couple of worms sitting around trying to clear up what God meant by what he said. There is only one appropriate response to what God has said: "Truth, Lord." (Matt 15:27)

Post by **_Seth** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:58 pm

So this is the one topic in Biblical scholarship that is now closed to debate, so says you? Not even willing to hear the other side? Wow.

BTW, how exactly is this so important? Am I not elect if I don't believe in election? Can I not know these "obvious" truths and yet attain to salvation?

God has plainly revealed himself and how he saves sinners, and imagine a couple of worms sitting around trying to clear up what God meant by what he said. There is only one appropriate response to what God has said: "Truth, Lord." (Matt 15:27)

And yet for those of us who don't see the "plainly" revealed thing, the debate would likely be healthy. Since it's so important, why not hold the debate? Obviously the "hater" would be crushed by the superior logic, right?

I actually expect the fear (yes, calling it fear) of debate obvious in this (and other) posts reveals that you may actually just be a Troll. Feel free to correct what seems to me "plainly revealed" by your posts.

-Seth

By the way, anyone still experiencing stress at the end of the day WILL BE FIRED!!!!

Post by **_Super Sola Scriptura** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:44 pm

Arminians "blaspheme"??? Are you serious??? Calvinism is styled as "doctrines of grace", but such unproven assumptions and titles are only a small sample of the circular reasoning employed by your proponents. Calvinism is more properly called the "Doctrines of Disgrace", for that is what they are. Wesley called Calvinism a "Hellish blasphemy" and he was right. It makes God a monster, who creates multitudes of hapless beings to torment forever to show off how big and mighty He is. How demented, how Satanic. Calvinism is the biggest slander upon the character of God and the Cross of Christ that Satan ever devised.

All the jibberish about "Sovereign grace", "Free grace", etc is high sounding nonsense. Calvinsim makes our Lord a Sovereign DEVIL, not a Soverereign God.

Post by **_gracemonger** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:35 pm

"It makes God a monster.........." prepare to meet a monster.

Post by **_TK** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:12 pm

did gracemonger just call the God he believes in a monster? yep, i think he did. wow-- that takes guts.

TK

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:26 pm

No, No, No, I'm afraid I think he is referring to Satan. He has already said in another thread he started that those who hold to non-calvinistic doctrines, or arminian doctrines are: blasphemers, lost, people who have a false faith and a delusional hope, people that have been taught by blind and ignorant men, people that hold to man centered religion as the truth of God, and are responsible for presenting lies which are damning to the souls of all who believe them. Not to mention what he has said in this towards those who's beliefs are in opposition against his. For instance, people who hates the sovereign, free grace of God, and people who hate God Himself, blasphemer, people who lie about God and blaspheme the Saviour. So it's pretty clear that he thinks people who do not hold to Calvinism's presentation of God and Sovereignty are hellbound.

This means he has these thoughts towards Steve Gregg, Adrian Rogers, Bob Wilkin, Charles Stanley, David Cloud, Greg Boyd, Hank Hanegraaff; Jerry Falwell, Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, Ron Rhodes, John Wesley, all the early church fathers from first four centuries, and many many more.

However, a very respected man of God that held to Calvinism named George Whitefield, did not believe anywhere near what Gracemonger believes. For example:

Once when one of his followers asked Whitefield if they would see Wesley in heaven, he said, “I fear not, he will be so near the throne, and we shall be at such a distance, that we shall hardly get sight of him.

Post by **_21centpilgrim** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:28 pm

I just found these postings by gracemonger and I am in tears laughing, I know that this is sad in a way but I just had a funny thouoght that I have to share. I think the reason that gracemonger does not reply,ever it seems, is that he is to busy building straw men to do so.

I do hope that Super Sola's response was reactionary and not his true feelings.

Grace and peace, jeremiah

Post by **_JC** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:54 pm

My dear Calvinist friend, your lord is Augustine... not Christ. Do you regard scripture as truth? How do you apply the following verse from 1 Corinthians 13:

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Let us suppose, for a moment, that you can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge and we are but hapless fools. This scripture says your knowledge is worthless because you don't act in love. Furthermore:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.