Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

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Paidion
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:24 pm

So you think Jesus destroyed Jerusalem. Hmmmm.... I thought it was the Romans.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by TheEditor » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:25 pm

"Jesus said in answer, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom was of this world, my disciples would have made a good fight to keep me out of the hands of the Jews: but my kingdom is not here." -- Joh 18:36

Though not dealing with the subject of carnal warfare, it is interesting to ponder the subject in light of these comments.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

thrombomodulin
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:47 pm

Homer wrote:It has been asserted here that the early Christians were uniformly pacifists and would not have supported war in any way, but Origen, in "Against Celsus", book VIII, chapt. 73, appears to indicate Christians were supporting the Roman army through intercessory prayer so that "whatever is opposed to those who would act righteously may be destroyed". Origen went on to say "but we fight on his behalf, forming a special army - an army of piety - by offering offering prayers to God".
I am not familiar with the historical situation of the Roman army at the time of this writing. Could you give me a brief overview of this historical context? Was this a prayer for peace or military victory? If the latter, I am wondering if Origen would have advised the Christians, who resided in the enemy territory that was being attacked by the Roman army, to have prayed against the Roman army and for the victory of their own side?

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TheEditor
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by TheEditor » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:04 pm

Greetings,

For sake of discussion, here is the full quote from Origen:

"In the next place, Celsus urges us “to help the king with all our might, and to labour with him in the maintenance of justice, to fight for him; and if he requires it, to fight under him, or lead an army along with him.” To this our answer is, that we do, when occasion requires, give help to kings, and that, so to say, a divine help, “putting on the whole armour of God.” (Eph. 6:11) And this we do in obedience to the injunction of the apostle, “I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority;” (1Ti. 2:1, 1Ti. 2:2) and the more any one excels in piety, the more effective help does he render to kings, even more than is given by soldiers, who go forth to fight and slay as many of the enemy as they can. And to those enemies of our faith who require us to bear arms for the commonwealth, and to slay men, we can reply: “Do not those who are priests at certain shrines, and those who attend on certain gods, as you account them, keep their hands free from blood, that they may with hands unstained and free from human blood offer the appointed sacrifices to your gods; and even when war is upon you, you never enlist the priests in the army. If that, then, is a laudable custom, how much more so, that while others are engaged in battle, these too should engage as the priests and ministers of God, keeping their hands pure, and wrestling in prayers to God on behalf of those who are fighting in a righteous cause, and for the king who reigns righteously, that whatever is opposed to those who act righteously may be destroyed!” And as we by our prayers vanquish all demons who stir up war, and lead to the violation of oaths, and disturb the peace, we in this way are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them. And we do take our part in public affairs, when along with righteous prayers we join self-denying exercises and meditations, which teach us to despise pleasures, and not to be led away by them. And none fight better for the king than we do. We do not indeed fight under him, although he require it; but we fight on his behalf, forming a special army - an army of piety - by offering our prayers to God."

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

rcassell
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by rcassell » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:32 pm

Hi Pete:

I apologize for the misunderstanding of the direction of your comments. I haven't read enough of your comments yet to comprehend your position. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding and for explaining your position. I want to give some thought to your comments, as that is a question that I have never thought about.

Have a nice evening,

Ron

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Homer
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:06 am

Brenden,

Thanks for posting that whole context, I am a slow typist! Hope that answers Pete's request for context.

As I understand Origen, He was saying that the Romans exempted their priests from the army, who then attended to the sacrifices to their God's on the army's behalf, and was claiming the Christians should have the same privilege and would pray for the Roman army to have success in battle.

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TheEditor
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Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by TheEditor » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:09 pm

Hi Homer,

I think it's going to take some time to digest exactly what Origen is getting at. I think maybe reading more of his polemic might be helpful along with some historical background, but I haven't had the time. I would suggest another possibility is that since Origen was writing against Celsus' criticism of the church, in this case being Celsus' argument that if everyone stayed out of the military as the Christians do/did, then who would fight the wars of protection? One could make the argument that Origen was doing a bit of a "semantics shuffle" in trying to say Christians were supporting the Romans through prayer. I could see circumstances under which a Christian may not support the government under which they live, but if accused of being disloyal, one might say "I am not disloyal as a Christian, why I support the State by my prayers for God's justice and will being championed by the State", without actually acknowledging that you inwardly know that the State isn't always in harmony with God's will. Just a thought. I'll have to think on it more.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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