Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:29 am

Doug,

The thousand year reign in Revelation, not Daniel, is symbolic for completeness in describing the conditions starting in Matt 28:18 and ending in 70 A.D. regarding Christ ruling and the Saints position. John saw people already seated on thrones and then he saw those who were coming into the reign that had already begun, and these are the very ones to which the Revelation was written to, pre-Neronic persecution. Daniel 7:18 does not interpret NT revelation, it's the exact opposite! Jesus and the NT Prophets are the only ones qualified to interpret OT prophecies and this thousand year reign we are discussing had an end or completed time frame.

Doug, you insist to go outside the time frame established by God concerning these prophecies, why? I'm not making this up. Where does God give you the idea that any of these events belong outside the 1st century of the intended audience?

I only have to deal with the nature of these events and may never fully understand the how, but you must deal with both the timing and the nature in which the timing puts you at odds with inspired scripture.

dwilkins
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by dwilkins » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:55 pm

I agree with you that the New Testament is authoritative in interpreting the Old Testament. However, I'm not aware of anywhere that it flatly contradicts the Old Testament. It might add some color, or explain why something is spiritually fulfilled (as opposed to literally), but it doesn't completely reject the dynamic of a discourse. Therefore, since Daniel 7:18 is crystal clear that the saints don't begin to fully reign until the beast is destroyed after the day of the Lord, and since Rev. 20:4 clearly says that the saints who are raised are those martyred by the beast in the few years before the day of the Lord, there is no way that this reign can start earlier than 66AD. I propose that it starts in 70AD. It cannot start in 30AD. Why can't you deal with this directly?

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:06 pm

dwilkins wrote:I agree with you that the New Testament is authoritative in interpreting the Old Testament. However, I'm not aware of anywhere that it flatly contradicts the Old Testament. It might add some color, or explain why something is spiritually fulfilled (as opposed to literally), but it doesn't completely reject the dynamic of a discourse. Therefore, since Daniel 7:18 is crystal clear that the saints don't begin to fully reign until the beast is destroyed after the day of the Lord, and since Rev. 20:4 clearly says that the saints who are raised are those martyred by the beast in the few years before the day of the Lord, there is no way that this reign can start earlier than 66AD. I propose that it starts in 70AD. It cannot start in 30AD. Why can't you deal with this directly?

Doug
Doug,

Where in the Olivet Discourse is the "Thousand Year" reign mentioned? Don't you know that everything mentioned in the OT and The Revelation was fulfilled in the interpretive language used by Jesus himself in the Olivet Discourse? There are no contradictions in my understanding with the timing of these events. Like I said before, we may never fully understand the details as ancient Hebrews did, but nonetheless, our lack of their knowledge doesn't call into question inspired scripture concerning the timing of these events.

Whether the reign began in 30 A.D. or 66 A.D. is debatable, but what should be crystal clear is that this particular reign of judgement had an end in 70 A.D. because the scripture projects nothing unfulfilled beyond this climax.

dwilkins
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by dwilkins » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:06 pm

Daniel 7:18 describes the same reign as Revelation 22 quoted below. It is described as extending into the future from the point of view of Revelation. I don't think that is consistent with your paradigm.
Revelation 22:5 ESV

And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:18 pm

dwilkins wrote:Daniel 7:18 describes the same reign as Revelation 22 quoted below. It is described as extending into the future from the point of view of Revelation. I don't think that is consistent with your paradigm.
Revelation 22:5 ESV

And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
Doug,

This is describing the results of The Revelation using metaphors of things taking place both in the seen and unseen realm for almost 2000 years now and into the future. I don't see any conflict in the biblical time statements. You see, the time statements are irrefutable and will forever defend against any and all claims that state otherwise. 2000 years and counting; I come quickly, the time is near, this generation (1st century), at the door, etc… remains firm and authoritative. I'll continue to trust the scripture and marvel at how these events took place and maybe learn more of the "how" as I continue to look forward living in the promised New Heaven and Earth.

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by dwilkins » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:20 am

robbyyoung wrote:

This is describing the results of The Revelation using metaphors of things taking place both in the seen and unseen realm for almost 2000 years now and into the future. I don't see any conflict in the biblical time statements.
I don't see any conflict with them either. But, your previous statements would seem to preclude this option. I mentioned earlier that I think that this reign and the reign of the saints in Rev. 20:4 (and Dan. 7:18) are parallel. You said that couldn't be true because the reign of the saints would have to be concluded by 70AD. Can you clarify this for me?

Doug

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:58 am

dwilkins wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:

This is describing the results of The Revelation using metaphors of things taking place both in the seen and unseen realm for almost 2000 years now and into the future. I don't see any conflict in the biblical time statements.
I don't see any conflict with them either. But, your previous statements would seem to preclude this option. I mentioned earlier that I think that this reign and the reign of the saints in Rev. 20:4 (and Dan. 7:18) are parallel. You said that couldn't be true because the reign of the saints would have to be concluded by 70AD. Can you clarify this for me?

Doug
Doug,

The thousand year event in Rev 20 has an expiration assigned to it; vs. 5 & 7. You will go crazy trying to put OT prophecies before NT clarification of those OT prophecies. That's why the Olivet Discourse is so important, all these events must fit within its parameters and we must not forget how the unseen realm applies. Simply put, The Thousand Year Reign is an event within the everlasting Kingdom which has no end.

dwilkins
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by dwilkins » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:31 am

robbyyoung wrote:
Doug,

The thousand year event in Rev 20 has an expiration assigned to it; vs. 5 & 7. . . Simply put, The Thousand Year Reign is an event within the everlasting Kingdom which has no end.
I disagree with the first assertion. Rev. 20:5a has a textual variant that doesn't require the portion of the text referring to a future resurrection. I think the verse makes more sense without this element. On the end of the thousand years, since I don't think it's possible to precisely align the thousand year detention of Satan and the thousand year reign of the saints, they are least slightly different periods of time. In addition, the only thing actually described in the text (and so, I'd suggest what is actually in view) is the block of time after the termination of Satan's detention. More importantly, though, your paradigm won't allow your description of the thousand year reign. According to Full Preterism the thousand year reign is block of time BEFORE the everlasting kingdom comes into full power. Full Preterism says that the thousand year reign runs roughly from 30AD to 70AD and then all prophecy is completed being fulfilled. I don't think you are being very precise in relating that system.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:01 pm

dwilkins wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
Doug,

The thousand year event in Rev 20 has an expiration assigned to it; vs. 5 & 7. . . Simply put, The Thousand Year Reign is an event within the everlasting Kingdom which has no end.
I disagree with the first assertion. Rev. 20:5a has a textual variant that doesn't require the portion of the text referring to a future resurrection. I think the verse makes more sense without this element. On the end of the thousand years, since I don't think it's possible to precisely align the thousand year detention of Satan and the thousand year reign of the saints, they are least slightly different periods of time. In addition, the only thing actually described in the text (and so, I'd suggest what is actually in view) is the block of time after the termination of Satan's detention. More importantly, though, your paradigm won't allow your description of the thousand year reign. According to Full Preterism the thousand year reign is block of time BEFORE the everlasting kingdom comes into full power. Full Preterism says that the thousand year reign runs roughly from 30AD to 70AD and then all prophecy is completed being fulfilled. I don't think you are being very precise in relating that system.

Doug
Ok, I can't be anymore precise than what the scriptures allow. The thousand years is clearly contained within the "hereafter" prophecy, which was to take place very soon in the 1st century. I'm not looking for what Jesus said was to take place in that 1st century generation, but what I am enjoying is the results of those events, namely, our salvation being complete. For me to believe what all 1st century believers believed, puts me on safe and firm ground. If I sin, they sinned, and Jesus himself is a deceiver. Since this is an impossibility, I'll stay this course without any reservations. People today have an enormous task of proving they (NT prophets) were all wrong and then taking their place, as an inspired prophet, as qualified to interpret and apply OT prophecies to our day. Lamentably, there are those who act in this capacity, confusing everyone who hears. Once I let go of this erroneous mindset, everything became much more convincing and authoritative concerning the timing and nature of eschatological events as described by the NT authors.

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:42 pm

For me to believe what all 1st century believers believed, puts me on safe and firm ground. If I sin, they sinned, and Jesus himself is a deceiver. Since this is an impossibility, I'll stay this course without any reservations


Robby, perhaps you can flesh this thought out a bit for me, specifically the highlighted portions.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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