Re: Jehovah Witnesses
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:49 am
kaufmannphillips wrote:
You are right that I don't think anyone can know all perfect theology, nor do I believe anyone adhered to the Old Testament laws perfectly. ( As a Seventh Day Adventist child, I tried. Believe me, I tried, but was always reminded where I fell short. For example, I "worked" two minutes past the sun setting on Friday night. )
To answer your question above, I don't believe we are "doomed by the requirements of salvation." Actually this is a two part answer. First, I think the "requirements" are simple. Believe Jesus. Follow Jesus, Abide in Jesus. And Jesus leads one to the Father.
Second, we are not doomed by failing to understand all theology perfectly. If we were expected to understand theology / eschatology / trinity verses aryian / calvanism verses augustianism, soul sleep verses immediate move to heaven or hell.....etc. then the Word of God would have made it more clear. ( Perhaps you may be thinking that I need a whole new paradigm, as I think we will consider next.
kaufmannphillips wrote:
Additionally, right choices verses wrong choices may be arbitrary;they may be a matter of perspective at the moment (or they may be "black and white" like my above example illustrates). At least they sometimes are to me. For example, I prayed and prayed and sought the Lord. I acted upon the "right choice" where I believed He was moving me. Later in the day, I heard some potentially disturbing news that was a potential outgrowth from my decision (and the other person's actions in the matter), and then I prayed to the Lord, "Father, did I hear you correctly?"
kaufmannphillips wrote:
Two parts: First, I'm somewhat perplexed that someone professing to NOT be a Christian would even care to communicate or comtemplate things as you do. Are you sure you're not a Christian? Perhaps you still do love Him, but you just don't adhere to the old voices telling you what you used to believe.
Second, Theoretically, I agree that since Jesus was perfect, we can be too. (Isn't it great when we agree?! ) There is in fact, that verse that says "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." But again, as a child, I tried and failed. ( Can you help me out here? I'm surprised again. This time I'm surprised how sensitive I feel about this. Like the emotions that follow abject failure are welling up from within...and I don't like this. It feels uncomfortable, yet somehow I am compelled to stay in the conversation so I can, in hopes, grow.
What is your understanding of the scripture I quoted above?
kaufmannphillips wrote:
I see now. Since you are Jewish, you recognize YHWH, but not the divinity of Jesus Christ, right? Ummm, backing up to your phrase about Jesus being human and divine, I would say that THAT is one more example of theology that Christians split hairs over, divide churchs over, get mad at each other about...oh my goodness! I hate division! Rhetorically speaking, is there no way that we humans can share our differing viewpoints without enduring disdain between one another? I would that we be one as the Father and Jesus Christ are one. One in unity and love and purpose......
kaufmannphillips wrote:
Jesus set Himself apart (sanctified) so we could also do the same. When I contemplate Jesus' sanctification, his setting Himself apart from the world,it challenges me to become more like Him. For example, Jesus prayed for long periods of time to His Father, instead of like me sometimes, when I take short "devotional" moments with the Father in the morning, you know, as one runs out the door for the daily routine....
Really following Jesus' example in all things results in a different model/picture/image of Christianity than we are used to seeing in America. Jesus' example offers the challenge to be perfect in Him, to be perfect like our Father, but I don't think we'll ever 'make it" as long as we are on this side of Jesus' coming. Do you think we can be perfect now, in this present "dispensation" or "system?" If so, how!? (Okay, I can imagine you saying by making one right choice at a time. True enough, but I don't always know what the right choice is, like for instance, if one wants to minister full time, should they take the job before them or spend all their time in ministry, trusting God to provide. How can one know God's will in every single matter?
(You really have me thinking about a lot of things...THANKs...
Blessings to you,
selah*
.Your own statements suggest that a human can no more hold a perfect theology than they can perfectly perform the laws of the Torah. So your statements do not recommend either kind of perfection as a requirement for salvation. If everybody is doomed by the requirements of salvation, then what salvation is there?
You are right that I don't think anyone can know all perfect theology, nor do I believe anyone adhered to the Old Testament laws perfectly. ( As a Seventh Day Adventist child, I tried. Believe me, I tried, but was always reminded where I fell short. For example, I "worked" two minutes past the sun setting on Friday night. )
To answer your question above, I don't believe we are "doomed by the requirements of salvation." Actually this is a two part answer. First, I think the "requirements" are simple. Believe Jesus. Follow Jesus, Abide in Jesus. And Jesus leads one to the Father.
Second, we are not doomed by failing to understand all theology perfectly. If we were expected to understand theology / eschatology / trinity verses aryian / calvanism verses augustianism, soul sleep verses immediate move to heaven or hell.....etc. then the Word of God would have made it more clear. ( Perhaps you may be thinking that I need a whole new paradigm, as I think we will consider next.
kaufmannphillips wrote:
At face value, I understand your logic, but I fail to see how this applies to real life. It seems more like a musing for a philosophy class. Now I'll answer seriously though, we don't get to "tilt the odds" of always knowing the right theology. Only God can do that by telling us more, but He didn't do that in His word. Also, we don't tilt the odds for knowing His will --in certain matters. Some are clear, like adultry is wrong. I think everyone agrees to that, but remarriage after divorce is a matter of division. Again, knowing what is the right choice to do in life is a matter of opinion. And incredulously, the opposing opinions are based upon the same (basic) ancient texts!In every opportunity for decision, one can make a right choice or a wrong choice. Theoretically, it is possible for one to always make a right choice. To make a broad parallel, it is possible to flip a coin and have it come up “heads” 100,000 times in a row.
Many people would look at that sort of prospect, and say it’s basically impossible. But it’s not. It may be highly unlikely, but it is possible. What is more, there are ways to tilt the odds: developing a remarkable techinique for flipping; attaching a magnet to one side of the coin; using a coin with two “heads”; etc.
Additionally, right choices verses wrong choices may be arbitrary;they may be a matter of perspective at the moment (or they may be "black and white" like my above example illustrates). At least they sometimes are to me. For example, I prayed and prayed and sought the Lord. I acted upon the "right choice" where I believed He was moving me. Later in the day, I heard some potentially disturbing news that was a potential outgrowth from my decision (and the other person's actions in the matter), and then I prayed to the Lord, "Father, did I hear you correctly?"
kaufmannphillips wrote:
When I was Christian, I would argue that since Jesus was perfect, it is apparent that humans can be perfect.
Two parts: First, I'm somewhat perplexed that someone professing to NOT be a Christian would even care to communicate or comtemplate things as you do. Are you sure you're not a Christian? Perhaps you still do love Him, but you just don't adhere to the old voices telling you what you used to believe.
Second, Theoretically, I agree that since Jesus was perfect, we can be too. (Isn't it great when we agree?! ) There is in fact, that verse that says "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." But again, as a child, I tried and failed. ( Can you help me out here? I'm surprised again. This time I'm surprised how sensitive I feel about this. Like the emotions that follow abject failure are welling up from within...and I don't like this. It feels uncomfortable, yet somehow I am compelled to stay in the conversation so I can, in hopes, grow.
What is your understanding of the scripture I quoted above?
kaufmannphillips wrote:
Under an “orthodox” Christology, Jesus was completely human. His divinity in no way compromised his human being. Of course, being Jewish now, that argument is not so relevant from my perspective. But it still may cut ice for some Christians, within their theological worldview.
I see now. Since you are Jewish, you recognize YHWH, but not the divinity of Jesus Christ, right? Ummm, backing up to your phrase about Jesus being human and divine, I would say that THAT is one more example of theology that Christians split hairs over, divide churchs over, get mad at each other about...oh my goodness! I hate division! Rhetorically speaking, is there no way that we humans can share our differing viewpoints without enduring disdain between one another? I would that we be one as the Father and Jesus Christ are one. One in unity and love and purpose......
kaufmannphillips wrote:
I agree that God works with us and His goal is for us to become as He is---and He is perfect. And I agree that this leads "to an ultimate ...perfection." I believe this will come when we are changed within a "twinking of an eye." Jesus will come again and then we will be finally---perfect. Do you believe we can be perfect now? How? !I think that God works with us with the goal that we become more perfect than we are. I do not see any reason why this cannot lead to an ultimate conclusion in human perfection. This does not necessarily mean that we will be able to calculate every mathematical equation in our heads, or that we will be able to hit the bull’s-eye of any archery target every single time, or that we will be identical to one another – only that we will be perfect specimens amidst the limited spectrum of what God intends for being human.
Jesus set Himself apart (sanctified) so we could also do the same. When I contemplate Jesus' sanctification, his setting Himself apart from the world,it challenges me to become more like Him. For example, Jesus prayed for long periods of time to His Father, instead of like me sometimes, when I take short "devotional" moments with the Father in the morning, you know, as one runs out the door for the daily routine....
Really following Jesus' example in all things results in a different model/picture/image of Christianity than we are used to seeing in America. Jesus' example offers the challenge to be perfect in Him, to be perfect like our Father, but I don't think we'll ever 'make it" as long as we are on this side of Jesus' coming. Do you think we can be perfect now, in this present "dispensation" or "system?" If so, how!? (Okay, I can imagine you saying by making one right choice at a time. True enough, but I don't always know what the right choice is, like for instance, if one wants to minister full time, should they take the job before them or spend all their time in ministry, trusting God to provide. How can one know God's will in every single matter?
(You really have me thinking about a lot of things...THANKs...
Blessings to you,
selah*